Ep. 10: Born For Something More with Caroline Ferguson

 

Unedited transcript – interview with Caroline Ferguson

00:00.77
katrinamcollier
Caroline Ferguson welcome to Beyond The Damage of Words podcast I’m still giggling because we were obviously mispronouncing your name before we came on air. But more excited you are. Of course my favorite sensitive upstart. So I had to have you on. So thank you so much. It’s so fun.

00:15.30
Caroline Ferguson
Ah I’m so pleased I’m just so tough to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

00:19.23
katrinamcollier
Ah know well I talk about high sensitivity so much through the book. So I can’t wait to dive into this conversation but first and foremost like what led you into starting to work on yourself to starting to heal to starting to explore all these things was there a moment was there a what happened.

00:25.90
Caroline Ferguson
Um.

00:34.24
Caroline Ferguson
Well yeah I guess there was I guess there was it. It was um I had this kind of itch for a very very long time that I just felt you know I was born for something more.

00:37.25
katrinamcollier
Ah, oh.

00:44.74
katrinamcollier
And.

00:46.31
Caroline Ferguson
And didn’t really know what that meant or or what it was I just kind of assumed that it was about writing because I wanted to be a writer wanted to write stories I wanted to write screenplays and then one day low and behold I find myself as paid staff writer with a production company and I thought Yay I’ve made it but actually the feeling was still there.

00:52.12
katrinamcollier
E.

01:02.73
katrinamcollier
Amazing I.

01:06.20
Caroline Ferguson
That itch was still there and at that point I decided I really had to take it seriously and then there was a moment which was on a train on my birthday. This is a story I I tell quite frequently because it was such a moment for me. It was october it was about.

01:20.12
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

01:22.69
Caroline Ferguson
7 or 8 at night I was on this train. It was a rainy dark night I was on my way back commuting from work to our commute. Oh Lordie and it was my birthday and I was late for my own birthday dinner a party that my cousin was throwing for me and it was just grim. You know I’d had a grim day and um.

01:25.11
katrinamcollier
October in England I can feel it. Oh.

01:41.23
Caroline Ferguson
And and we won’t even talk about Menopause but it was all of that and I was on my way back and we basically ran over somebody on the line and I was in the front carriage so there was a dead person under the wheels of the train carriage that I was in and.

01:50.19
katrinamcollier
Ah.

01:58.85
Caroline Ferguson
We had to wait on that train for 3 hours before they could get us off. It was an 8 carriage crowded commuter train was standing room only and and they had to bring us off down a ladder at the back and there were people in that front carriage that were grumbling and moaning about how inconsiderate it was for some person.

02:13.52
katrinamcollier
See strangely. That’s where my head went. That’s such an england thing though when you’ve lived here you do get pretty annoyed that they do it in peak hour but at the same time I do feel the empathy see I get it I get the two sides of how one would feel in that moment. It’s dreadful.

02:18.47
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, ah and I was on my way to my birthday party you know? Ah, anyway, it was and it was grismal.

02:30.97
katrinamcollier
And is an England thing I’m sorry it’s an ingo thing listeners. It’s There’s just too many unfortunately. Ah Christmas Love that I bet. Yeah.

02:37.98
Caroline Ferguson
And I had a bit of a cry because I was just thinking you know, um, somebody is not going home tonight. Somebody’s son or child or daughter or husband or whatever is not going home tonight and I had a little bit of a ago at 1 man but who was particularly you know unemppathetic about the whole thing.

02:49.94
katrinamcollier
Um.

02:53.78
katrinamcollier
Asked? yeah.

02:57.29
Caroline Ferguson
But after that I realized I never did make my birthday party of course. But after that I realized that actually that voice in my head that been telling me for decades that I was born for something more I just needed to listen to that and I needed to find out what my more was and it turned out much to my great shock. Um, that.

03:07.90
katrinamcollier
Oh yeah, ah.

03:16.84
Caroline Ferguson
It was training to be a therapist which had really not even been in my head before that. But once that idea arrived I acted on it really quickly and I went off to therapy school to train to be a cognitive behavioral hypnotherapist and and making that decision.

03:20.57
katrinamcollier
No.

03:27.66
katrinamcollier
Um.

03:35.20
Caroline Ferguson
As rapidly as I made it as completely as I made it and starting the training a couple of months later I realized was a single it was just this massive pivot point in my life and it was the single most important thing I’ve ever done for me because never mind for for my clients subsequently but training and learning the skill.

03:41.52
katrinamcollier
A huge moment.

03:54.96
Caroline Ferguson
The most important life skill I think of self-awareness was was absolutely the most healing thing I did because I always used to think you know I was if if you said stick your hand up people who think they’re self-aware I’ve gone. Oh my God Yes, maybe me but actually I really wasn’t.

03:55.78
katrinamcollier
Um, yes.

04:13.63
Caroline Ferguson
Um, what I was with self-conscious. Well the ah the alternative of one of the alternatives is self-conscious and that’s what I was and self-a awarenessreness is really about getting to know yourself in depth. You know absolutely to to your roots. Yeah.

04:14.20
katrinamcollier
Ah, there’s self-awareness and then there’s self-awareness.

04:20.52
katrinamcollier
Yeah. Yeah, oh say that again self-conscious versus self-awareness can you explain that for a second that sounds interesting.

04:32.56
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, yeah, so so this came out of my mouth when I was doing a corporate talk and there’s this wonderful woman called Tasha Eurick who’s an organizational psychologist I think she is and she is obsessed with self-awareness and she’s written the book literally written the book. It’s called Insight go and read it. https://amzn.to/46LkqmB

04:41.17
katrinamcollier
You.

04:47.31
katrinamcollier
And yeah, yeah.

04:52.52
Caroline Ferguson
Wonderful. And um I had just been doing some reading around self self self awareness and and really it’s about understanding yourself in in detail. What it is that moves you what triggers you where all that stuff has come from what you value your values. Not the ones you’ve dragged up behind you.

04:58.31
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

05:04.45
katrinamcollier
Yeah, the real ones the ones behind the masks.

05:11.13
Caroline Ferguson
And it’s also about having this realistic. Yeah, it’s about having this realistic view of how the world sees you as well and only according to her research you know if I go into a room and I always do this during a talk I say hands up everyone who thinks they self-aware and I’d say you know threequarters of people in the room will be good looking around going is that.

05:16.66
katrinamcollier
A.

05:24.70
katrinamcollier
Yeah, nice.

05:30.32
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, you know and I have to say to them. Well, that’s that’s admirable that that you know you think you are but actually the facts are that less than 15% of you are truly naturally self-aware which is incredibly inconvenient considering it’s the most important life skill.

05:42.90
katrinamcollier
Yes, it really is yes.

05:48.99
Caroline Ferguson
And and and I would have said yeah I was one of those but I really wasn’t so when I was in this room I was saying to people then somebody said So what are the rest of us and I just it just came out self-conscious that it was sort of oh right round the room and they all went Oh my God It is true. It’s true. Um.

06:04.60
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

06:08.18
Caroline Ferguson
So Self-consciousness is really about having this obsession with how the world sees you and this sensitivity about how the world sees you and this paranoia about how the world sees you um and all the troubles that that cause you just have to look at teenage girls. You know.

06:14.81
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah up, go the masks. Yeah, but you know what.

06:27.91
Caroline Ferguson
This mass of Self-consciousness and the damage that that could cause because it doesn’t go hand in hand with self-awareness but what.

06:32.66
katrinamcollier
No, and actually to me it sounds like me when I had self-hate I was very self-conscious and then when you do become like you’re saying you unearth all of the stuff and you start to love all of your stuff about yourself sellllulite warts and all actually.

06:40.24
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

06:51.86
katrinamcollier
Then you do become much more self-aware because you do notice your impact on other people. Um I love that awkward moment in the room though. Ah.

06:53.64
Caroline Ferguson
You do you do? and and the fantastic thing I Always say to people is is I am living proof that you can learn it? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but it’s helpful because when people realize that and they own it. They admit it. It’s like oh my God she’s right? Yeah, um.

07:07.93
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

07:11.37
Caroline Ferguson
And of course the ah the alternative. The other alternative is self- focusedcused which is you know, slightly slightly different as well. But what we want to be self-aware and we can do the work. There are ways that we can learn how to do that and it is a lifelong path for me, you know I have moments every day or every week where I think Oops just learn something new there. Um.

07:20.29
katrinamcollier
Um, yes, yes.

07:31.29
Caroline Ferguson
You know file that one away. Ah so yes, so so self-awareness.

07:33.80
katrinamcollier
But I think see what you just saidve what you’ve just said I’ve also um was just ah, speaking with Lyn Hanford day about then you have this self-compassion like oh oh oops actually I didn’t react the way I’d like to have what was that about was there a trigger was there this and then you start being curious. Don’t you.

07:40.96
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely and self-awareness can be the start point for all of that when you know yourself better. You can accept self- acceptance comes and then we’ve got compassion.

07:51.17
katrinamcollier
Ah, going? Yeah yeah.

07:59.57
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, yes, huge yeah, um so well yeah, and and and it’s.

08:01.28
Caroline Ferguson
Follows and curiosity as well because Curiosity is the opposite of judgment So foster that compassionate curiosity so by hammering into people.

08:13.82
katrinamcollier
It’s being aware enough as well of the voice the dialogue in your head isn’t it like what are you saying to yourself in that moment when you should be being kind and compassionate. So you’re sitting on this train and you’re having a typical highly sensitive moment where you’re crying for the poor soul that’s been lost and the family.

08:17.70
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, yeah, yeah I was yes yes I was bleeding down there on the track.

08:32.70
katrinamcollier
What a I’d have been doing both by the way I’d been irritated and having a cry like I would have been doing the 2 when did you discover your high sensitivity. Ah yeah.

08:35.32
Caroline Ferguson
And I was at his mother’s home.

08:42.70
Caroline Ferguson
I It was in the first few months of my training. Actually we had this lovely lecturer who came in and did a session for us about something and she um, she’s talking about something and then she just sort of threw out there in a really casual way. Oh but of course I’m a highly sensitive person and then just.

09:01.85
katrinamcollier
In your luck I What? what.

09:02.51
Caroline Ferguson
Carried on talking and my little monkey. No no else. My little monkey was going. Oh how he said to person get me you know and it was just judgment. It was judgment pure and simple and then I I felt slightly ashamed of myself. So um.

09:12.65
katrinamcollier
Ah.

09:18.53
Caroline Ferguson
So I shut up but it it sort of stayed with me that moment because I also thought how ballsy of her to just say that because it’s not something to be proud of you know, um, and then ah yeah, um, and a couple of um of weeks later we had another of our chetahs an absolutes.

09:24.90
katrinamcollier
I Know no because there’s sensitivity shaming I talk about that in the book too. It’s it’s rife. But.

09:38.10
Caroline Ferguson
Gold as Maggie Chapman she was just my heroine. Um, we were doing a role play and I was playing the role of the therapist and it’s really interesting when you become a therapist when you wear that hat you become a therapist. It’s really interesting.

09:44.86
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

09:55.80
katrinamcollier
Yeah, um.

09:56.65
Caroline Ferguson
Whereas when you’re role playing the therapy. All of that goes away that wisdom goes away so there I was playing the therapist and one of my fellow study people. Learners was the therapy and he revealed something as a result of the role play we were doing.

10:06.51
katrinamcollier
Is.

10:14.81
Caroline Ferguson
None of us had known and that was shocking a moment in his life that was shocking and after a pause for me to ask whether he was okay and wanted to continue. He said Yes, he just seemed you know relieved unburdened and and we continued and at the end of the role play was like.

10:15.48
katrinamcollier
Ah, but ah.

10:30.57
katrinamcollier
Ah.

10:34.41
Caroline Ferguson
And Maggie said to both of us. You know well handled both of you or you were okay and we both went yeah and she said right? Caroline Ferguson you go into the therapies chair I went to that chair and I immediately burst into tears. Ah, ah you know I thought I was okay but I really wasn’t and I just burst into tears and.

10:46.94
katrinamcollier
To let out all of his stuff. Yeah, ah.

10:52.47
Caroline Ferguson
And then Maggie said to the class I’m sure Caroline Ferguson won’t find me saying that she’s a textbook example of an hsp absorbing all of that feeling and feeling all of that stuff and then I said to her you know joy mentioned this a couple of weeks ago and and I I sort of wrote it off but I sort of remembered it now I need to find out some more about this.

10:59.86
katrinamcollier
And you went a Ah what? yeah.

11:04.68
katrinamcollier
Fifth.

11:10.19
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

11:12.45
Caroline Ferguson
So I went out and I bought the book and of course it was just like a homecoming you know it was absolutely like a homecoming apart from this 1 thing that kept recurring where they say that hsps have a tendency to because we’re all different but have a tendency to be much more cautious.

11:14.61
katrinamcollier
Yes.

11:21.38
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

11:30.43
Caroline Ferguson
Other people much more risk averse and I was going her I don’t recognize that but you know I I rode motorbites before I drove a car exactly and then there was a page in the book that referred to high sensation seeking and the fact that 30% of hsp’s.

11:31.11
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah I don’t recognize that bit either. We bonded over this though didn’t we ah.

11:48.26
Caroline Ferguson
Are also high sensation seekers and and there’s this it it is and there’s that push me pull you thing going all the time about oh and so you know I need to I need to just stay safe and calm and understimulateated and then the other part but then I need to get on my motor boat. Yeah, exactly then I need to try something new. But.

11:50.43
katrinamcollier
Yeah, it’s such a contradiction as Well. Ah, yeah, but that I need to go see new things. Yeah. I Want to go see something new I don’t want to stay here I Read a rut. Yes.

12:07.76
Caroline Ferguson
Ah, ah yeah, and it’s new, intense and varied experiences of what the sensation part seeking part is looking for and then the sensitive part. Although yes, we’ve got this rich inner world and this vibrant imagination that can wander all over the place. You know you actually put us in the situation. It’s like oh.

12:11.90
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:26.96
Caroline Ferguson
Ah, hold on I’m not sure about this. Ah so yeah, yes.

12:30.16
katrinamcollier
Amazing. So we should actually we should explain the contradiction shimy. So my understanding highly sensitive people. It is a genetic trait and it’s about 15 to 20% of the population and basically all our senses are above the normal range so we hear stuff field stuff smell stuff see stuff. Claire.

12:40.12
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yes, yes.

12:49.24
katrinamcollier
Um, trying to think bit more than the usual person. Yeah, actually my friends on taste. Yeah.

12:50.51
Caroline Ferguson
It can be. It can be and it’s it’s a technical name is sensory. Oh yes yes I’m a supertaster as well. Um, the technical term for it is sensory processing sensitivity. So it’s everything that we process through through our 5 senses. Um.

13:01.52
katrinamcollier
Hey yeah yeah, is it a higher. Yeah.

13:07.81
Caroline Ferguson
Heightened um and everyone again is a bit different but there are certain abilities I suppose and and features that that commonly crop up, not everyone will have all of them. But I think the most important one is the ability to notice and observe what’s going on.

13:14.85
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

13:27.80
katrinamcollier
Everything Everything we say everything? yeah.

13:27.26
Caroline Ferguson
Through multiple channels. So we’re seeing it. We’re hearing it. We’re smelling it and and we notice things at this micro level of detail this subtle level of detail that other people don’t see which makes us incredibly valuable at work because we can spot things and you know spot patterns and themes before they become real problems. And another thing is this rich this vivid inner world and this rich imagination which means we can solve those problems because we can come up with ideas and solutions that other people might not see so we’re brilliant at that. But we do have a tendency with all of that noticing and observing and processing at depth. It can overwhelm us.

13:46.98
katrinamcollier
Yeah, um, my God yeah.

13:52.43
katrinamcollier
Like exactly yeah o.

14:02.70
katrinamcollier
Kind of overwhelmed. Ah.

14:06.45
Caroline Ferguson
It can overload us from a sensory point of view from a central nervous system point of view and I tend to to talk about in terms of like each of us humans has this bucket of stuff that we can tolerate in a day and and with us we start with our bucket half full. You know our Bucke already powerful.

14:23.97
katrinamcollier
Yes, that’s not court is ah but yeah, no.

14:25.59
Caroline Ferguson
And and when it overflows when there’s too much going on it overflows We don’t always behave terribly Well I get a bit snappish you know and I need to get myself away from that situation because we need to calm our nervous systems down we need to let the level in the bucket drop so that we can just.

14:35.81
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, exactly So I assume.

14:44.59
Caroline Ferguson
Deal with ourselves deal with life. So it’s It’s so many gifts but it has some challenges as well.

14:49.45
katrinamcollier
Oh it is so many I mean it is so many gifts I use it in so many different ways I think actually that problem solving our ability to see 6 different solutions to a problem like that is just amazing. Once you’ve got a vote I don’t know.

14:54.84
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, and people say how do you do that and you think I don’t know I Just do I Just do.

15:02.99
katrinamcollier
And so I didn’t realize I mean it’s not a neurod divergence but in a way it is because it is We are born with different brains. It’s it’s I Love it I Love it the more I understand about it but I just wish people didn’t shame. You know like when people spray their Deodorantts and I react or I walk past someone with perfume I’m like oh my God you know and.

15:05.16
Caroline Ferguson
Know Well, it’s sort of is yeah but it’s normal.

15:21.33
Caroline Ferguson
Um, oh yes.

15:23.30
katrinamcollier
Unfortunately, that’s our world and I just wish people would stop shaming. So once you discovered that How did that help you as far as did you I mean you obviously studied it I’ve had you talk about it but it’s at did you.

15:32.26
Caroline Ferguson
So I did I did yes um I realized that the understanding that I was a highly sensitive person and that it was genetic. It was wired in to me. Um, it just.

15:48.18
katrinamcollier
Ah, m.

15:49.76
Caroline Ferguson
Gave me a massive understanding and a massive compassion for my past self for everything that I’d been through um I went to boarding school when I was nine years old you know that wasn’t any fault of my parents. My my dad was a diplomat. They didn’t have decent schools in half the places we were in. So but when you send a very sense.

15:52.13
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yes, oh.

16:04.26
katrinamcollier
Run.

16:08.33
Caroline Ferguson
Small child away from home it it was it was damaging. It was damaging Yeah and and the toughness that I had to learn has stood me in good stead. But I think there would have been easier ways to learn that you know it really. It was very difficult.

16:11.41
katrinamcollier
Odd, yeah.

16:24.28
katrinamcollier
And as as a lot of the work you’ve done been on that like going back to that in a child and healing and sort of um.

16:32.29
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yes I I did I have been back to her. Um I’ve done quite a bit of work there but I found actually that developing self-awareness and having an understanding of how I’ve.

16:42.68
katrinamcollier
That was the main one? Yeah perfect.

16:47.18
Caroline Ferguson
Got to who I am and and how I got here helped with that Anyway, it just helped with that anyway because one of the one of the keys to self-awareness and also to the to the work that that that I was studying cognitive behavioral.

16:58.54
katrinamcollier
Here.

17:02.24
Caroline Ferguson
Ah, Hipnotherapy it was so it was a form called rational emotive behavior therapy and it’s really based around our beliefs now I tend to call those our stories now. So I talk about stories and the most important story in the world. The most important question in the world for me is what’s.

17:06.55
katrinamcollier
Right.

17:12.90
katrinamcollier
And.

17:18.25
Caroline Ferguson
Story I’m telling myself right now that’s leading me to feel like this. Um because that helps you to unearth the belief that you’ve got about a situation but also to understand that it’s that beliefs that’s driving your emotions and driving your feelings and driving what you’re doing and not doing and when I learn to think like that.

17:20.57
katrinamcollier
Yes.

17:26.10
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

17:32.49
katrinamcollier
Yeah, and it also makes you take ownership doesn’t it. Yeah yes.

17:37.78
Caroline Ferguson
It completely does it. It makes you accountable for your own feelings. What’s the story I’m telling myself about the situation that is leading me to feel like this and when you can tune into what I call the inner radio which is broadcasting all these stories in our self talk when you know how to tune in.

17:51.38
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

17:54.27
katrinamcollier
Yeah, amazing. Very yeah because you moved from victim to hang on I have some control here I’m playing a part to role but a part in this and then.

17:56.33
Caroline Ferguson
And challenge that story and change that story. It changes everything it changes everything agency. Yeah yeah, yeah.

18:12.80
katrinamcollier
Well, what shall I change to get a different outcome. It’s.

18:14.71
Caroline Ferguson
And I talk to my clients about this and they say you mean I’ve been doing it to myself. Okay, yeah, but that’s really good news. It’s really good news. Trust me Yes, we’ve been brutalizing ourselves but the only thing we can change is us.

18:17.55
katrinamcollier
Yes, yes, well actually that that leads so perfect? Yes, but that leads so perfect and to what I luck is a theme throughout the book. So the book is the damage of words and obviously this is beyond because.

18:34.19
Caroline Ferguson
Yes.

18:36.25
katrinamcollier
I want to talk it to people who got beyond the but we take the words that we heard that were potentially damaging and then we play them luck. You’ve just said with your clients who suddenly gone I’ve been and we do I did for 2 decades you know I just well actually probably longer because I probably did it in my teens as well. So you know probably 3 decades.

18:40.94
Caroline Ferguson
Yes, yes, yes, we do? Yes, we do? Yeah yeah because we don’t know how not to yeah we don’t know how not to um.

18:56.17
katrinamcollier
Yeah, no.

18:58.40
Caroline Ferguson
And the thing about self-worth is that that it has its roots in the in the messages we absorb from Childhood and the treatment we receive in childhood. Absolutely no doubt about that. But as adults we perpetuate it because we don’t know how not to and I have people that come to me to say um.

19:06.76
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

19:16.66
Caroline Ferguson
You know I need to sort out myself where if I feel really really bad about myself and I’m constantly criticizing myself and I feel so unworthy and not good enough and so you know we take that on. We start doing the work and then you know a couple of weeks in they’re saying when are we going to do that bit I’m saying well the thing about that bit the self-worth.

19:21.72
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

19:35.20
katrinamcollier
No.

19:36.46
Caroline Ferguson
As adults is it’s not a cause and we have to you know it’s a consequence. We can’t deal slap a band-aid on a consequence you know sending you to a nice spar and telling you to speak nicely to yourself is not going to do it What we have to do is go to yes.

19:41.44
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

19:51.15
katrinamcollier
Stockage like get through the layers the trauma you have to.

19:54.79
Caroline Ferguson
And and the metaphor I use I really need to find a new one. It’s it’s like you go into the kitchen every day and the floor is wet and so you’re always mopping this floor to dry the floor but the problem is not that the floor is wet. The problem is that the radiator’s leaking. You have to fix the radiator and the Radiator’s the story.

20:03.56
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yes, yes yeah, interesting.

20:12.33
Caroline Ferguson
We’re telling ourselves as a consequence of which we feel bad and and the nature of those stories is going to be around perfectionism around need for people pleasing a need for approval around a desire for certainty. Absolutely.

20:21.52
katrinamcollier
Which are all leading to burnout all these people burning out. It’s all back to the leaky radiator. Yeah.

20:31.90
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, absolutely so so that’s what I do really is I help people to I’m a plumber I help people to to to identify the problem with the raditor and help them to fix it. Um, oh it.

20:39.85
katrinamcollier
And we’re just gonna fix the plump. Yeah yeah, but I assume that a lot of that is healing a lot of trauma.

20:50.22
Caroline Ferguson
Absolutely is because when you when you can develop that self-awareness and you understand yourself so much better and you have that compassionate curiosity and you have the tools to think in a healthy and more flexible way then you could start healing because you’ve made some changes because you can’t fix it if.

20:54.93
katrinamcollier
Are you? yeah.

21:08.57
Caroline Ferguson
If nothing changes then nothing changes. You can’t just fix it by wishing it or by trying lots of stuff that’s all about dealing with consequences. You have to go back to the route. You know you have to go back to the root. Um.

21:15.45
katrinamcollier
I Love that you do so when I hear that I think of um, note don’t say her name. Um someone very close to me in my life who won’t look at our childhood trauma I think I just gave it away. But anyway um I would totally gave it away but she’ll forgive me.

21:26.15
Caroline Ferguson
Yes.

21:34.93
katrinamcollier
Because she thinks it’s ripping the lid off Pandora’s box and I think that’s almost like I want my self worth like this is almost like ripping the lid off but you can’t I mean you can’t do that. Can you? That’s that.

21:40.17
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yeah.

21:44.75
Caroline Ferguson
Now you can’t do that You can’t do that and the thing is that what’s actually preventing people from ripping the lid off the box is fear. Yeah, it’s all about fear of losing control because what’s in the box will be so overwhelming and so overpowering that it will.

21:53.70
katrinamcollier
Earth.

22:04.46
Caroline Ferguson
Beat us that we won’t survive it. Um, and if we’ve got the right kind of help you know, Not only do we survive it but we move past it and it becomes.

22:06.88
katrinamcollier
Have you? Also yeah yeah, have you usually found when you’ve walked through and you’ve had numerous clients and you’ve walked through this and I’m still thinking of my own experience.

22:19.15
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yeah.

22:22.62
katrinamcollier
The box was actually decidedly smaller than I thought it was and I had piled so much stuff on it in my head is that quite common as well. Yes, oh yeah, it just piece of Myup Boxes magazine.

22:23.91
Caroline Ferguson
Yes, yeah, remember this rich vivid imagination of ours. You know we can imagine stuff but absolutely and fear is a really powerful emotion.

22:39.23
katrinamcollier
Ah, yeah.

22:41.13
Caroline Ferguson
Ah, really powerful emotion. You know anxiety is this sort of root of all of that and it it makes things bigger and deeper and stronger than they actually are so if we can kind of shine the spotlight on the stories.

22:51.99
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

22:57.29
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

22:57.38
Caroline Ferguson
What’s the story I’m telling myself that’s leading me to feel like this that’s leading to this fear to this anxiety when we shine a spotlight on it. It kind of withers up and becomes this this small ugly broken thing. Um rather than this massive all-conquering all powerful thing that can.

23:04.77
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, smaller thing that you can then do with? um yeah.

23:16.28
Caroline Ferguson
Destroy us we have to shine that spotlight on it and we have to challenge it and it takes its legs out.

23:20.79
katrinamcollier
Ah, like that. Yeah, how do you know someone ask you a different question what I was gonna excuse is it because I think you’ve already given the advice and the reassurance to people that it’s not, You’re not ripping a bandai often I just I cannot make that and I’m sure that’s what prevents a lot of people from taking a step.

23:28.19
Caroline Ferguson
Um, and.

23:38.18
Caroline Ferguson
I think it does but 1 thing to to mention before you ask question is that we need to do that work with somebody who knows what they’re doing you know with somebody who’s trauma-informed because trying to do it yourself can lead to a lot of self-medication with all sorts of stuff to.

23:39.99
katrinamcollier
Because of that it’s our thing. Sure.

23:48.88
katrinamcollier
Yes’s gonna say that. Yeah trusting. Yes.

23:57.79
Caroline Ferguson
Um, we just don’t know we we don’t have the tools to handle it. We don’t have the knowledge we have the experience and having someone in your corner who does is absolutely invaluable but it’s really important that you have a relationship that is trusting you know when you go and you decide to work with a therapist or.

23:59.68
katrinamcollier
And.

24:08.62
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

24:14.85
Caroline Ferguson
Preferably a therapist that’s trauma informed not a coach because they don’t They don’t have the you know they’re not quick to deal with these serious issues. Yeah yes, absolutely. But it really helps to have someone to.

24:19.28
katrinamcollier
And unless they’ve done the two so I was quite lucky. So my first had done the both sides and also had her own experiences and her own healings. But again I also think a lot of it’s referral isn’t it as well. A lot of the time.

24:32.58
Caroline Ferguson
Hold our hand on that walk. Yeah, um, absolutely yeah.

24:35.91
katrinamcollier
Like you know, ask your network who do they know who they um and why what drew you to them but on the flip side. How do you know? then when ah, a client is ready to even start the work because sometimes they must make an approach and you must think is there a.

24:46.67
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah I learned pretty quickly. Um, the first session that anybody has with me is what I call the story session and it’s it’s a minimum of 2 hours where they tell me their story from cradle to now you know how they and they’re going off into health and to family into relationships into work into.

24:54.88
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

24:58.48
katrinamcollier
Prime.

25:04.89
katrinamcollier
M.

25:06.62
Caroline Ferguson
Trauma into experiences and it’s very rare that that we have a chance to just talk about ourselves for 2 hours to somebody who’s interested in sympathetic and that session is in itself really therapeutic because I’ve I’ve got so many clients who you know during that story session. They’re kind of going oh hang on that.

25:16.98
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

25:26.23
Caroline Ferguson
Sort of repeated that pattern there and maybe that you know came out of that and they’re already making connections because they’ve never had that opportunity to do that before so they’re being in their own therapist really and once they start to be able to see those connections and those consequences It’s like right I know what I’m dealing with now.

25:31.26
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

25:44.56
Caroline Ferguson
It’s got more of a shape and while they’re telling that story. It gives me a really good opportunity to listen to them and to observe what’s going on for them and it’s very hard for someone to stay hidden during that session. You know it.

25:44.76
katrinamcollier
Gotcha.

25:55.40
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, they’re also showing that willingness to start connecting dots and I think that’s summer but isn’t it because then you know.

26:02.59
Caroline Ferguson
Exactly Well the most the first therapeutic decision is is the choice to work with somebody is when you decide right? I am going to sort this out with someone’s help and that sends a huge positive message to to your own. You know your mind.

26:10.68
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, um.

26:19.94
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, or off here we go? yeah.

26:21.20
Caroline Ferguson
Your psyche you’re in a child that right were on this. We’re going for help. The cavalry is coming. Yeah yeah, so that’s the first positive step and then that story session where they start to see this isn’t so ungovernable. It’s not so unmanageable as I thought there is a shape to this and there is a person here that’s going to help me with this.

26:36.38
katrinamcollier
It’s not yeah yeah, and I think it’s when you’ve got that trusted partnership and it’ll it’ll be different people won’t it as well. Mm.

26:41.70
Caroline Ferguson
So therapyuttic and there are times where I have actually said yeah but there are times very quickly when I have actually said to somebody right? You’re not ready for coaching at the moment you really need deep therapy and I don’t do that work mostly anymore I send them off to somebody who does.

26:51.59
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, exactly? Yeah yeah, yeah.

26:59.23
Caroline Ferguson
Somebody who is really deeply trauma informed and then I say come back and see me when you’ve you know when you’ve kicked its ass. Um, and then we’ll work on the coaching we’ll work on who you’re going to be when you grow up.

27:10.64
katrinamcollier
I agree with that because I’ve actually worked with business coaches. For example who I could tell wouldn’t have been able to deal with my my complex ptsd and you know the at real childhood trauma I Love that piece of advice. Yeah.

27:12.30
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and you have to be really honest about it. You have to be. You know it’s not about my ego. It’s about what works. What’s good for you for the client.

27:28.32
katrinamcollier
What And as a as hat just p this nowhere where you want to not help people as well. So you absolutely just couldn’t we just couldn’t We’d feel the consequences. We genuinely feel. Um, ah.

27:33.78
Caroline Ferguson
Know Ah, we do and we have to recognize that compulsion sometimes for what it is which is inappropriate sometimes you know we’re not the right person. We’re not the best best person for that person now. So.

27:47.82
katrinamcollier
Yeah, sometimes it’s such a great feeling though when you admit that a bit and they always they always come back as well. A there were a fair of other people. Ah you know because you’ve been honest and that sort of a thing which is great and what about. So just if you were to look back from the person that started.

27:50.20
Caroline Ferguson
Yeah, we have to oh it’s yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

28:03.57
katrinamcollier
Working on yourself and the person now. What would you say? the difference is actually feel lighter or happier or or grounded or but what’s been the biggest.

28:08.69
Caroline Ferguson
I feel I have this incredible peaceful sense of Self-ac acceptptance and and self-compassion. Um, and that doesn’t mean I’m not tough on myself. Occasionally, you know I still give myself a good talking to itself and yeah, ah, but.

28:21.32
katrinamcollier
Um, is still human.

28:27.93
Caroline Ferguson
Just C incredibly peaceful to not feel any shame and to know because I used to I used I cry a lot you know and I in fact I don’t cry nearly as much as I used to because I’m no longer trying not to cry all time. Yeah I used speak i’ fight it don’t cry. Don’t cry to cry.

28:35.73
katrinamcollier
It is um so do I.

28:42.52
katrinamcollier
I can cry at Tv advertisements I can literally be not crying and then crying one middle I like I can watch a real and cry in the space of 30 seconds ah Ah, it’s fine. It’s just a bit of energy who cares? ah.

28:46.12
Caroline Ferguson
Oh God Absolutely But I really enjoy that kind of crying Now. It’s like oh just? um, yeah, it’s it’s when you’re at work and you’re you’re doing ah you know, got an advertising agency pitching to you and. And they’ve shown you this little video as part of their work thing and the lights come up and you’re sobbing Oh the shame the Shame. So I Just don’t have that anymore. Oh was really good. It was really covered.

29:10.36
katrinamcollier
Ah, it actually shows you how brilliant that advertising campaign is for the 20% of the population. We’re going to totally feel it.

29:19.91
Caroline Ferguson
It was really good. It was if I tell you about it. You’ll be crying to it was so good. Um, but it was about baggage handlers. Um, ah but so yeah, so that Self-ac acceptance and it’s so peaceful because I just I think a lot of this is on to do with you know, having passed the midlife point.

29:21.72
katrinamcollier
Ah, you don’t don’t God No this is a happy podcast with a really depressing name but it’s a happy podcast. Ah so.

29:39.41
Caroline Ferguson
Um, as ah as a woman you know I think it’s sort of built into so many of us widened to so many of us that we have to look after everybody else and I know that there are there are women out there that don’t conform to this but you know when you feel that certainly as I did with my approval addiction that I needed.

29:40.15
katrinamcollier
Um, as well. Yeah, um.

29:55.48
katrinamcollier
The.

29:58.12
Caroline Ferguson
To make everyone else’s life better at often. The expense of my own and when you kind of get rid of that perspective and it becomes healthier and more balanced. Oh it’s just so peaceful. You know it’s so peaceful, not beating yourself up and not feeling ashamed for being too sensitive or too vulnerable or whatever it is um.

30:00.41
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

30:12.82
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

30:17.12
Caroline Ferguson
And as a result now that I’ve stopped needing not to cry and stopped feeling that that sense of shame that I used to feel. It’s just ah I’m so much more self-supporting I’m so much more? Um, just at ease you know and accepting of of who I am.

30:19.85
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

30:35.35
Caroline Ferguson
And I like myself a lot more. So yeah peace.

30:38.64
katrinamcollier
It’s funny every time you say the crying I think I was constantly being told I had crocodile tears but never stopped me crying strangely considering the words that she held at me that one just never really sunk in I don’t think you can I think is I hate just Pe If you’re gonna cry. You’re gonna cry. But I love that you’ve released.

30:43.39
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yes.

30:50.41
Caroline Ferguson
None if you’re going to cry. Yeah yeah, um.

30:54.90
katrinamcollier
Shame and the and all of it I mean it it is It is such a gift but it is also so tough and I just you know I do hope that um people who read my book or listen to this podcast and aren’t highly sensitive that they give us a break because we can’t help it when you walk past with this strong perfume and we’re like oh my god.

31:12.26
Caroline Ferguson
I know.

31:14.26
katrinamcollier
Or whatever it might be I can walk past the privet and just be stop dead and go oh God Oh yeah, it’s blocks nose Oh in the airport you should see me walk through Dutyy free straight through with my nose blocked I don’t have no shame now I walk through really obviously blocking my nose so they leave me alone. Um I Just yeah, but.

31:24.24
Caroline Ferguson
Ah, um, ah ah I had a job once though that they had this big fabric. It was in a law family and and I was brought in it was a weird job I was brought in.

31:34.68
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

31:39.59
Caroline Ferguson
And my boss was immediately sacked and I was immediately given her job. It was very strange. We genders I didn’t I didn’t yeah so she had this chair and this was in the this was in the 90 s I think when do you remember all those really hideous strong perfumes. There was one called Georgio sorry Mr. Armani but it was called Georgia and they wouldn’t allow it in restaurants because it just you know.

31:41.43
katrinamcollier
All quids.

31:48.71
katrinamcollier
Yes.

31:59.44
Caroline Ferguson
Which it does sps and took your nose off and she would sit in this big tweedy chair and just go squeosh srushrush and I had to leave the room and then of course she had to leave and I inherited her chair but the first thing I did was like get rid of the chair I can bear it.

32:02.28
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

32:08.90
katrinamcollier
Ah, ah headache Oh no wash it? yeah.

32:18.50
Caroline Ferguson
I go bear it so out with that chair but I could smell her for about two months it was just unbelievable. yeah yeah I can’t think straight. It’s just like I can’t think it’s right I’m just consumed by this smell. Ah.

32:20.00
katrinamcollier
Ah, yeah, oh I could just the worst headaches and people think you’re inside. It’s like yeah I actually really thought it into experience in um, on this trip in Texas but with the waitress that had really strong perfume.

32:36.64
Caroline Ferguson
And.

32:38.86
katrinamcollier
And I just couldn’t every time she walk over but I like in a restaurant I don’t expect it so that was bizarre. Yeah, it was very strange. But yeah, you have my empathy on that. So oh I love interrupting.

32:41.10
Caroline Ferguson
That Yeah, you’d think that would be part of her job contract actually is that you can’t do that I I Just want to interrupt you right for one second I’ve been digging all the way Through. So I’d say that you pity you writing this book is such. Ah, wonderful and extraordinary thing that you are doing for yourself. But also for all of people who are going to be helped by this book because I think I think what you’re doing is profound and profoundly helpful and Cathartic. So um, be behalf of all of us out there. Thank you.

33:00.55
katrinamcollier
Oh Thank you. Thank you.

33:11.90
katrinamcollier
It? Yeah, ah thank you I see I’m tote emotional now tell know who taught me that expression I Love it. Yeah I get so over? Yeah I feel this is my sole path I feel.

33:21.20
Caroline Ferguson
Um, I’m joining in I’m joining in.

33:29.25
katrinamcollier
Called I feel an incredible weight of responsibility to bring this to the world as well. Um, and it has been a fight on a soul level with my mother to write this book. So it’s like I’m giving it my all and I’m coming out of the spiritual closet as well. So it’s gonna be quite interesting to see oh all these people who know me as this logic recruitment purse that are going I’m sorry you’d got what.

33:42.62
Caroline Ferguson
I Can’t wait.

33:49.15
katrinamcollier
So yeah, but I just I I know should be off but I just want the I just want to create more healing I want it to be acceptable I want to I want people to talk about it and be do you know what? I’m not okay and I’m going to get some help and to encourage people to take a step. So.

33:50.30
Caroline Ferguson
Where’s yourroomstick.

34:06.23
katrinamcollier
Thank you without you know people like yourself sharing your stories. It doesn’t you know it doesn’t help does it.

34:10.95
Caroline Ferguson
You’re you’re so welcome and and the first step I think the absolute first step is to understand that we deserve it. We deserve that healing and because when we we can’t seek help unless we feel entitled to seek help.

34:15.69
katrinamcollier
You deserve it? yes.

34:24.93
katrinamcollier
Um, that is so.

34:27.27
Caroline Ferguson
And we have to be able to give ourselves permission to feel entitled to be helped and to be whole and to be healthy and to give ourselves full permission to follow that path and I think that the reason that so many people don’t follow the path is because they haven’t given themselves permission. They don’t feel entitled. They’ve.

34:32.51
katrinamcollier
Um.

34:39.28
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

34:47.60
Caroline Ferguson
Don’t feel. They’re not good enough to even be helped.

34:47.66
katrinamcollier
Yeah, do you know what? That’s why I didn’t know I was going into therapy now I know why that I needed to I went to see Michelle because of my career was in a lookout of what am I doing here I didn’t go in and then she went hang on a second.

34:52.40
Caroline Ferguson
I.

35:00.53
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:06.69
katrinamcollier
You know and realized that there was trauma and complex Pts day and all of that to heal and it was yeah now I understand because actually I if I’d been I’m going to go and work on myself I wouldn’t have so now I understand why I actually almost got blindsided into a but because the universe needed me to do this.

35:14.14
Caroline Ferguson
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s ah acknowledging it. Yes, acknowledging it understanding. You’re entitled to it giving yourself permission.

35:24.49
katrinamcollier
Bring this book to the world. Ultimately, so yeah, you are. You’re worth it. Yeah oh my gosh. Thank you Caroline Ferguson no I did get that right thought I was gonna say your name wrong then Carolyn Ferguson ah

35:31.50
Caroline Ferguson
And then doing the doing. Such a letter. Yeah.

35:43.58
katrinamcollier
That would be Caroline Ferguson Ferguson if people would like to get in touch with you. What’s your what’s the easiest way if they want to say I’ve heard you on this podcast. Yeah.

35:43.65
Caroline Ferguson
Um.

35:48.19
Caroline Ferguson
They can do it I’m on Facebook I’m on Linkedin and everywhere you’ll find me is Caroline Ferguson Ferguson mindset trainer so Facebook Linkedin and I’m also got a website which is Caroline Ferguson Ferguson Dot Com me up.

35:55.94
katrinamcollier
Yes.

36:03.86
katrinamcollier
It’s so easy when your names your website isn’t it I Finally got there I went all these loops and then just went to me. It’s so good.

36:08.00
Caroline Ferguson
Like grabtic first I have this this lady in the states that writes to me about once a year saying have you tired of your website yet? No okay, no not yet sorry Caroline Ferguson Ferguson I’m the real Caroline Ferguson Ferguson ah Ah,

36:15.80
katrinamcollier
Now yeah, take no whatever I just keep it free. She can use 1 of the other dot whatevers. You keep your dot com anyway, thank you again.

36:30.16
Caroline Ferguson
It’s a pleasure. Thank you.