Ep. 9: Grieving Loss Of Hope with Mark Gilroy

 

Unedited Transcript – Mark Gilroy

00:00.39
katrinamcollier
Ah, Mark Gilroy welcome to Beyond the Damage of Words podcast I’m so excited to talk to you today. How are you?

00:07.49
Mark Gilroy
Thank you, thank you so much for having me I’m really well I was just saying the sun is shining here I am in Yorkshire in the UK and um I think everyone it seems to put people a bit of a spring in. Everyone’s step. Um.

00:13.24
katrinamcollier
A.

00:20.72
Mark Gilroy
So I’ve said I’ve said I’ve said hello to a lot of strange today which is really nice. Ah.

00:20.76
katrinamcollier
It does I think it’ll be funny. Oh I think it’ll be funny because this a podcast will probably come out in a while and here’s us in our sort of summery attire and enjoy the sunshine and there will be like it’s middle of winter I’m confused ah but let us lap it up lap it up.

00:32.32
Mark Gilroy
And at the same time I’m like bring bring on Autumn There was a day this week when I stepped out of the door and it was like oh it’s autumn. It’s coming. It’s my favorite time of year. So I’m I’m all up for that bring it on.

00:44.35
katrinamcollier
Interesting, interesting. Well we’re not here to talk about that. Sadly though that does sound like a fascinating topic in itself because everyone is so opinionated about the weather here in the Uk but we’re obviously here to talk about your healing journey and what you’ve been up to so as I ask all my guess what was the thing. What motivated you to start? What made you go on a healing journey and.

01:07.56
Mark Gilroy
Um, in my case, it was a bit of an unusual experience of grief that I I hadn’t been expecting um but it was it. It was um.

01:17.97
katrinamcollier
Ah.

01:24.33
Mark Gilroy
Probably an experience that a lot of your listeners sadly will have either known someone else experience or maybe experienced themselves. Um and it was miscarriage that took place some.

01:29.67
katrinamcollier
I have.

01:35.87
katrinamcollier
Not talked about enough.

01:40.64
Mark Gilroy
Yes, yeah I think so too I think and I think the current statistics are like 1 in 3 which is great which is absolutely crazy that it isn’t talked about enough. Yeah yeah, um.

01:49.34
katrinamcollier
Wow, that’s seriously high I wonder if that goes no, don’t say that Katrina I was I was going to go back to the that’s because the things that are focused on tend to be male things because yeah. Medical profession has always been male hasn’t it up until this point like things like the menopause as well isn’t it. We’d let’s not talk about it. So wow so tell me more what happened well of obviously miscarriage. Yes, sorry.

02:12.23
Mark Gilroy
Um, oh yeah, yeah, ah.

02:18.58
Mark Gilroy
A miscarriage happened and and and hey before I get into that. So what you know it did hey it happened it happened and.

02:24.43
katrinamcollier
So I didn’t mean to laugh but it was my stupidity at saying that. But why did I just say that. Yeah and as I don’t edit this podcast that’s staying in.

02:37.63
Mark Gilroy
I’m actually I did it. You know before we get into any of this I think I wanted to make it super super clear. Ah particularly given the point you just mentioned about male doctors and and the patriarchy in general. Um I didn’t want this to come across as me turning up and saying.

02:40.64
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

02:48.59
katrinamcollier
Um.

02:53.39
Mark Gilroy
Oh hey, this is a really male thing and we should talk about this because it is a male thing by the way and it’s a real thing that is a thing real thing that male actual males actually experience and what a terrible. What a terrible um, dreadful ah thing to experience from a male perspective I I don’t I wanted to be really clear that that is not the reason I.

02:58.83
katrinamcollier
Ah.

03:06.65
katrinamcollier
I.

03:12.38
Mark Gilroy
Thought this would be something that we could talk about but more moreover that it was I’m sure because because I I mean I Although I have um, sadly had a lot of um, female friends.

03:14.30
katrinamcollier
You wouldn’t be here if I thought that’s what you were going to talk about I know you well enough to have not done that. But.

03:30.87
Mark Gilroy
Who’ve gone through this as well. Obviously obviously yeah, my my partner. My wife did I I cannot possibly begin to comprehend the level of the kind of physical and mental and psychological and emotional trauma that happens from a woman’s perspective and I don’t even want to.

03:38.92
katrinamcollier
And.

03:49.54
Mark Gilroy
Begin to um, guess what? what? that must be like or have been like um only that if it has happened to you or you know someone that has that’s happened to I’m really really sorry. Um, so ah.

04:02.34
katrinamcollier
Ah.

04:08.28
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, so what happened was a question. So yeah, we’re we’re probably going to go back about 13 years we’ve been trying. We’ve been trying for a little while to start a family. It was something we we both really really wanted and and actually it just hadn’t happened. We’ve been trying for a while um and and I think both.

04:14.52
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

04:28.25
Mark Gilroy
Growing up with ah quite a we Both went to quite a um strict Catholic school. So of course the teaching there is yeah, don’t exactly absolutely the minute you start getting into any of that. It’s like yeah.

04:38.90
katrinamcollier
Um, so you should actually have 9 to 12 children. Yeah, it’s indoctrinated. Yeah yeah.

04:47.24
Mark Gilroy
Ah, or or in our case, don’t do it. Don’t do it because there’ll be guilt um, be wedding beware the guilt it. Ah um, so of course our model for all of that was okay when we when we start trying it’ll be something that comes really easily and I’ll be a really.

04:52.80
katrinamcollier
Ah I see so it’s either extreme. Ah love it.

05:05.10
Mark Gilroy
Smooth journey of course and it wasn’t It wasn’t so but by the time we got to the point where actually there was a positive pregnancy test and there was all of that you know, amazing kind of hope and planning and imagining the future. Um, ah, neither one of us had even considered that this this might happen or this could happen.

05:06.88
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

05:17.20
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

05:23.92
Mark Gilroy
Um, although you know it had happened to people that had been close to us um, over over the over the past years and um, yeah I I think there was a when when it became clear that things weren’t quite right. I wasn’t actually there. I was I was I was working away and I got I got a phone call to say this and I think there’s a bit of a problem here. You need to get back back home as soon as you can which I did and we ended up I think in hospital the following day. Um.

05:51.93
katrinamcollier
Okay, and.

05:59.82
Mark Gilroy
And I’ll come back to that in a second little bit about about what actually happened in the hospital but it was it was made very clear that actually that there was there was a problem and and it was what is known as a missed miscarriage. So it’s when the.

06:01.40
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

06:18.54
Mark Gilroy
The body is actually behaving as if it’s pregnant. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s kind of well my understanding anyway of of of having looked into it is that the but the body the pregnancy actually fails really early, but the body continues behaving as if it’s pregnant. Um, so all that all of the usual stuff was was happening.

06:18.97
katrinamcollier
Ok, what’s a missed Rot. Ah.

06:32.00
katrinamcollier
I Oh that sounds cruel That’s cruel. Oh gosh.

06:37.93
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, there was just there was just there. There was some yeah, there’s There’s a lot of physical stuff to kind of contend with there from my partner’s side but also that there was there was a lot of of of the the kind of the mental and emotional stuff to process. Um, and.

06:51.26
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

06:58.21
Mark Gilroy
Here including Anger so I know this is not unusual actually and I’m I’m sure that many um couples will have had this experience where the the room that we were placed in when we were in hospital was um.

07:01.69
katrinamcollier
Mmm.

07:12.58
Mark Gilroy
Sort of very kind of early stage pregnancy unit where people go for scans if there’s like maybe something wrong or maybe they just want to get a scan just to check things out. Maybe maybe they had previous complications. But as a result after we’d had this dreadful dreadful news and we were waiting to have it confirmed by a doctor we were placed in a waiting room.

07:18.12
katrinamcollier
Got sir.

07:26.14
katrinamcollier
Ah.

07:32.12
Mark Gilroy
With maybe about 20 or so people in there and that room was full of people who had just come out of a very different experience of having a scan like like an early scan and they were clutching pictures of baby and baby um sort of scans and.

07:34.31
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

07:42.29
katrinamcollier
Ah, great news.

07:51.90
Mark Gilroy
Ah, ah you know, taking pictures of each other and maybe calling people and and and unable to contain their joy and I was absolutely furious, furious with them with the whole situation. Obviously I couldn’t blame them. Ah, but I think starting you know that.

07:56.70
katrinamcollier
Ah.

08:09.24
Mark Gilroy
It was already an experience of loss in its natural to feel anger when you lose something but that just compounded so much and and I think it could have been so easily avoided.

08:20.37
katrinamcollier
It’s that exactly it’s that not thinking through so someone just needed a separate room for those who were grieving from those who are rejoicing literally a separate room and just nobody had thought that through.

08:34.71
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, and and I get and I get it like you know that there are limited resources and there’s limited space.

08:37.26
katrinamcollier
I Cut gosh and it would be so hard but it must have been so hard not to lash out as well when you because you’re just you’re in shock, you’re angry. You’re upset and there’s people celebrating in front of you. It’s that’s cruel it.

08:46.10
Mark Gilroy
Oh yeah, ah.

08:53.41
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, and of course yeah, it’s that’s that’s a really good word for it. It felt just cruel to to kind of add add the insult to the injury there of of having all these people celebrating the thing that you desperately desperately wanted and have just been told you’d Lost. Ah. Unimaginable cruelty. Um, so yeah, and and actually you know the the nurses were ah were okay, um, ah and and yet you know there didn’t seem to be any acknowledgement of that has happening and I know that’s not that’s not a thing that’s unique to um.

09:12.79
katrinamcollier
So.

09:31.54
Mark Gilroy
Where we live and I’ve since spoken to quite a few people who’ve been through exactly the same thing in hospitals in their part of the country and I think that that is something that desperately desperately needs to change because it’s ah it’s just needless. But yeah that that was ah that was a process of grief that started with extreme anger.

09:37.86
katrinamcollier
Ah.

09:40.63
katrinamcollier
Needs to be looked at. Yeah. Yeah.

09:50.82
Mark Gilroy
Extreme Anger and and nowhere really to put that anger because you you know it wouldn’t have been well I suppose it would have been appropriate but I didn’t feel it was appropriate to go over and just say like guys can you just turn this down a little bit because we’re going through our own thing. Um.

10:08.30
katrinamcollier
Um, and you’re such a kindhearted soul. You wouldn’t have wanted to do that. Even with that anger I know that you would have been still thinking. Let them have their joy. So what happened next? what was I Yeah I think so I mean.

10:08.69
Mark Gilroy
So.

10:19.61
Mark Gilroy
Let them have their try. Um, um.

10:25.31
katrinamcollier
Knowing you as I do I don’t think that you would have I know that’s a strange thing to say you would just wouldn’t have burst their bubble no matter how angry you were how I think you might have gone outside and punched something instead I something not a someone.

10:29.40
Mark Gilroy
I wouldn’t I wouldn’t I.

10:41.16
Mark Gilroy
Yeah.

10:43.14
katrinamcollier
To get it out of your body but there’s no way you’d you just wouldn’t It’s just not in your nature but actually just thinking ah putting people in that situation who perhaps are a lot more broken than they probably would lash out at somebody in that Joyous situation and burst that bubble for them. So that’s another reason that.

10:46.65
Mark Gilroy
Yeah I think it’s some.

11:00.63
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, I’m really surprised that that hasn’t happened. Yeah, so so separate rooms It doesn’t need to be anything fancy. Um, but I think separate rooms is is a really good idea because people are processing so much stuff and it’s so kind of like the whole room was charged with emotion because.

11:03.10
katrinamcollier
Separate rooms. Yeah.

11:18.37
Mark Gilroy
We clearly weren’t the only couple in there who had bad news that day it wasn’t just us and you you could as you were looking around this room. You could You could just see it on people’s faces. It wasn’t they didn’t need to say anything it was. It was very very clear that it absolutely was again.

11:21.37
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

11:32.66
katrinamcollier
Psytraumtizing.

11:36.95
Mark Gilroy
Totally needlessly, um, kind of twisting twisting the knife A little.

11:37.65
katrinamcollier
M. Yeah, So do I’m thinking back to the beginning of this conversation. Did you feel almost as the spouse that yeah I’m sort of sensing there was a bit I Hope this isn’t too deep that that you didn’t have a right to feel the loss or it’s.

11:48.38
Mark Gilroy
He.

12:01.20
katrinamcollier
Nobody talks about the loss from the partner’s point of view. Hopefully that made more sense than I thought I think it did is is there a bit of that going on as well like you’re incredibly angry and.

12:08.60
Mark Gilroy
That did make sense.

12:14.49
Mark Gilroy
Yeah.

12:18.31
katrinamcollier
Ah, sad and then oh, but maybe I shouldn’t feel that because it’s my wife going through it and it’s her body and I.

12:24.51
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, that that you know there was I hadn’t put it in that way before but I think that’s a really’s a really good way of framing it I think in my head I was a bit confused ah on that stage because I mean I was at a point in my life where I’d. <unk>d experienced grief before I you know I had lost relatives and grandparents and and and I understood what that kind of loss looked like and felt like and I’d seen it from other people as well. Um, yeah, including I you know I had a friend of mine who who um, who died really.

12:44.20
katrinamcollier
Um.

12:50.77
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

12:57.10
Mark Gilroy
Really quite young so it wasn’t just you know people who you expect to die you know I had experienced grief but this was a really unusual kind of grief and I wasn’t entirely sure how to respond to it because just thinking about how you said that you know do I have a right to this? Um, it was it was this sense of.

13:09.90
katrinamcollier
So.

13:16.60
Mark Gilroy
How do I how do I process loss for someone something I’ve never met before that that you’ve just been told is wasn’t ever real in the first place like there isn’t really a real book for that. There isn’t there’t. There isn’t a model for.

13:23.35
katrinamcollier
Um.

13:27.81
katrinamcollier
Yeah, um, 9 you’re like.

13:35.79
Mark Gilroy
For how how on Earth you you kind of reconcile these really deep feelings of grief and loss and sadness with the fact that it’s It’s for someone that that you haven’t got a relationship with.

13:50.44
katrinamcollier
You met? Yeah I guess ah you’re you’re grieving the loss of what would have been or what could have been your loss of you’re grieving the loss of the potential of this child that you it’s really.

13:56.30
Mark Gilroy
Yeah.

14:04.55
katrinamcollier
I’m going to make a shocking comparison because it’s the only one I can think of I suffer from Love addiction because of my childhood trauma and you retraumatize yourself with it because what happens is if you’re not aware you meet someone and you immediately dream up an entire future with that person rather than being very day to day and letting the relationship pan out so that then when it ah bursts. Because it does then you grieve the loss of this future that was underfined and then you go into the pattern again. That’s a dreadful comparison to make to what you’re talking about, but that’s just what kept going through my mind was that’s what I used to do in relationships and you like re-traumatize yourself.

14:29.97
Mark Gilroy
Now I. I Think that’s that is exactly what it was and that’s how I’ve kind of processed it subsequently in my kind of healing of of and and and gaining that emotional distance from what happened is actually the grief wasn’t for.

14:47.41
katrinamcollier
So.

14:56.63
Mark Gilroy
Necessarily for someone something I’d never I never meet I never met and I would never would meet but actually it was for an imagined future. Um, and what I think a lot of people that never have yeah it didn’t happen. Um.

15:04.35
katrinamcollier
Yeah, that didn’t happen.

15:12.89
Mark Gilroy
And and it’s still it’s still there. You know we still, We still think about it at that time of year when when um when my wife would have had that baby and and when we did get that news. It’s it’s still there. But I guess what a lot of people who haven’t been through this maybe wouldn’t necessarily know is that.

15:15.85
katrinamcollier
So.

15:22.61
katrinamcollier
So.

15:32.61
Mark Gilroy
There’s also another loss that takes place which is a real profound loss of hope for all future attempts. So whilst those first first kind of few weeks after seeing that kind of ah you know the.

15:42.40
katrinamcollier
Yes.

15:51.20
Mark Gilroy
The the blue lines on the pregnancy test were full of you know, um, optimism and joy and um, kind of celebration. We never had that again ever? Um, and it.

15:59.34
katrinamcollier
So um.

16:03.62
katrinamcollier
Because you were because you have had children since haven’t you So I assume that I assume but each time I assume that you saw the lines and then we’re like praying to.

16:08.13
Mark Gilroy
I have thankfully yeah, we’re yeah, we’re super lucky. We’ve got we’ve got 2 we’ve got two kids.

16:21.79
katrinamcollier
Instead of just absolutely getting super Oh gosh. Wow Wow They don’t talk about that either. Do they.

16:26.32
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, it is that you’re exactly right? So it was you see the lines and then you go oh my gosh right? I’m not going to get excited about this because I know what I know what can happen I’m not going to start imagining too many futures I can know they can be taken away like that and I.

16:34.16
katrinamcollier
Um, okay, okay, okay stress stress stress stress.

16:42.64
katrinamcollier
Ah.

16:45.13
Mark Gilroy
And therefore we’re not going to tell anybody because I can’t go through that process of having to call people and tell them all over again, having that having that awful news to share that. No one knows what to do with? um so that that is there’s probably a deep loss there I think in terms of.

17:02.82
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, so what did you do.

17:04.69
Mark Gilroy
Losing Hope is one of the worst things you can lose I think um and and and understanding how difficult how difficult it is to build that hope back from from that kind of you know, crushing loss.

17:15.97
katrinamcollier
So did you end up going and speaking to somebody or getting like how did you deal with that The the grieving hope that grieving hope. Wow.

17:23.11
Mark Gilroy
Yeah I mean we kind of went into um I kind of I fan of referred to as like turtle mode. Um for a little while so I took some I took some time from work I remember I remember speaking to my colleagues at the time and they were just absolutely.

17:32.65
katrinamcollier
I I.

17:40.29
Mark Gilroy
Amazing. Um, with with that news and they were really generous and and compassionate and and just said listen go take all the time you need there. There was there was never any pressure to to come to come back soon or or anything like that and and I’ll always be really thankful to them for the way they handled that. Um, given they could never have known what I have to tell them I just came in one day and said just I need to tell I’ve I’ve got some music need to tell you you need to know about this ah thinking I’ll carry on working I’ll try and work through this when actually I was all over the place I was in bits you know I and and then I can my partner and I we just sort of.

18:07.11
katrinamcollier
So.

18:18.64
Mark Gilroy
We kind of went into hibernation for a while we did. We did lots of little things like built furniture together and and kind of did little projects around the house that was almost like nesting in a way I suppose but it was it was the opposite of nesting because we had nothing to nest for it was it was it was kind of.

18:35.41
katrinamcollier
So.

18:38.73
Mark Gilroy
Being coming back together as a team I suppose that was really what that bit of healing was about but there was a day I remember I remember this really vividly I was stood doing some washing up at the sink and looking out into the garden I Just ah burst into tears and and the tears would not stop and I sort of thought to myself. Okay, this.

18:45.35
katrinamcollier
Nah.

18:58.10
Mark Gilroy
There’s some work that needs to be done here. Otherwise this is going to keep happening I didn’t know where I didn’t really know where they were coming from or why they were there and and other than they needed to come out. So yeah, that was there was a I I did speak to people I spoke to my friends you know I had I had people who’d been through this who I spoke to. Ah.

18:58.58
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

19:08.72
katrinamcollier
So yeah, so.

19:17.79
Mark Gilroy
About it but um, actually not many people know what to say in that really odd experience of loss of of and actually sometimes people without wanting um to can say some really hurtful stuff. Um.

19:35.69
katrinamcollier
Yes, yes.

19:36.86
Mark Gilroy
Things like um oh you know you’re young you try again, be all right or quoting the quoting the statistic that that the yes if out of it. Um, that’s a statistic of you know you will in 3 Oh you know you’re part of the 1 in 3 Okay, but that’s that’s not.

19:44.34
katrinamcollier
Um, I just snap out of it.

19:54.26
katrinamcollier
Thanks.

19:55.46
Mark Gilroy
Not really of any help at all. Thank you for that. It’s so common I had that a lot. It’s so common is is is extraordinary and so I needed some help dealing with how to deal with that.

19:59.84
katrinamcollier
Ah, what people say is are extraordinary. Yeah, it’s so common but we don’t talk about the yeah, it’s so common. We don’t talk about it. It’s mad we did? yeah.

20:14.12
Mark Gilroy
It’s so common. We don’t talk about it isn’t that weird. Um, yeah, what’s that about? yeah.

20:19.24
katrinamcollier
Didn’t talk about menopause like you know it’s mad. But I do you know what? that is that is that societal and a particularly in Britain and Australia is the same you know, stiff upper, aupperous emotions internal eyes just get on with it. You know? and unfortunately we’re we’re seeing the fallout of that now.

20:32.55
Mark Gilroy
Um, yeah, who yeah, it doesn’t work at all. Um.

20:38.60
katrinamcollier
But it’s just it doesn’t work to do that. So tell us about the healing part there. So you’ve realized and you talk to friends did you I mean did you see a professional as such. You see a counselor a therapist or someone and what.

20:51.70
Mark Gilroy
yeah yeah I did see counselor so I had some counseling available as part of the health care scheme I was on so I thought um, you know I I had a counseling before in the past and I did had found it helpful for um and I think. More than anything you probably know this because we’ve we’ve had all kinds of conversations over the years but I do I do a lot of my best thinking when I’m talking with someone. Um, so I thought this might you know quite naively. This might be 1 way to do it particularly someone who who wasn’t had no skin in the game so to speak just.

21:13.15
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

21:22.60
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

21:26.22
Mark Gilroy
Who wasn’t a friend or or a family member or or my wife or um or anyone else or a colleague actually ah as much as I appreciated those conversations in helping process all of that helping having someone else to talk to and make sense of it all with was was.

21:35.77
katrinamcollier
And.

21:45.15
Mark Gilroy
Was super helpful. Um, and I think you know we were talking before we started the record about kind of counseling and and I think the person that I spoke to in the end I wouldn’t say was um, ah in the strict disscents doing counseling with me and I can’t ah.

21:50.49
katrinamcollier
So.

22:00.76
katrinamcollier
So.

22:04.22
Mark Gilroy
Possibly name them but I was really grateful to them for that because but in in that kind of in in the learning and development profession. There’s There’s a really like clear line drawn between stuff like coaching and and therapy whatever form of therapy. It might take and counseling and and those sort of.

22:07.40
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

22:16.65
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

22:23.96
Mark Gilroy
Those different practices often. There’s like a Venn diagram somewhere but they are in distinct boxes and ah and a and ah the way it was always explained to me was when this is when I was doing my coach training was that counts thing is about revisiting the past to say oh what was that about what was that about should we just.

22:25.19
katrinamcollier
They’re in boxes aren’t they Yeah yeah.

22:42.99
Mark Gilroy
Poke and prod there a little bit and see what’s going on there. Can we look at that with your eyes that you’ve grown now and your mind that you’ve grown now and see if there’s anything else that’s going on that is that is explaining or adding color to your current real life experience of the world.

22:46.19
katrinamcollier
Ah.

22:59.33
katrinamcollier
Right.

23:00.86
Mark Gilroy
And I can absolutely see a a need for that and where whereas coachingly the hand is saying no, don’t forget about all that the past was the past you can’t change it. It happened focus on the future you can control that you have a total agency over that and therefore you should roll at your sleeves and.

23:09.43
katrinamcollier
Um.

23:20.47
Mark Gilroy
Start building a future. How can how can I help you do that I quite allow that distinction. But I do think there is a there is a kind of central space. A great gray space where there is value in both. What.

23:21.80
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, so.

23:31.00
katrinamcollier
There’s gray. Yeah I mean Michelle Zoli that helped me with my childhood. Trauma was absolutely both I mean we always went forward but we totally went back more therapy than um, not that she’d probably call it that but you know we were doing.

23:42.82
Mark Gilroy
Um, yeah.

23:48.45
katrinamcollier
You know in a child work. We were doing all sorts of stuff um, have to buy my memoir and read it. Um, but it’s like it was it because I think we need the we need the 2 we need to know we’re going forward but we do need to deal with it I don’t think you can just fully leave it I don’t I don’t think it works.

24:01.72
Mark Gilroy
Yeah I agree I agree because so much of it is rooted like so much of like your model of of who you are in the world and why things happen to you is is built on your charter experiences. So there is this.

24:06.85
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

24:11.74
katrinamcollier
And. Yeah, oh.

24:20.22
Mark Gilroy
There’s definitely value in going back and interrogating them I think sometimes where where that can backfire. Um I haven’t had this experience myself. But I know some of the people who have had this experience with counseling particularly is where um, a counselor may start poking. And peeling back layers of of some kind of trauma that actually um, had had been covered up in a way that does serve the person so it’s like it’s like watching a horror film like watching a horror film.

24:56.76
Mark Gilroy
That you havenn’t intended to watch and actually hasn’t any value for you in the here and now your mind’s protected you for it from it for for a particular reason that doesn’t need processing in the here and now I’m trying to think of an example of that word which wouldn’t involve of involve kind of um, but.

25:01.90
katrinamcollier
Wow.

25:07.67
katrinamcollier
Interesting.

25:13.55
katrinamcollier
So the skills that they gained going through that trauma were actually serving them I think most of us go through a trauma and that doesn’t service. So but that’s interesting. What an interesting perspective I’m going to have to find somebody to talk about that aren’t I.

25:15.34
Mark Gilroy
Breaking someone’s competence.

25:22.93
Mark Gilroy
Absolutely.

25:32.83
katrinamcollier
Interesting. But I guess my only concern would be yeah I think my only fear would be I Hope that doesn’t put people off because if you feel unhappy and you you don’t have self-worth then you do need to go back. But actually if you’re happy and you’re fine.

25:33.51
Mark Gilroy
Ah, so I’m not I’m not going to use a specific example but can you can you see what I mean by that.

25:52.48
katrinamcollier
And it’s not yeah, interesting. So what? what happened tell what happened next with your your you’re stepping through that. So.

26:04.98
Mark Gilroy
Um, well part of that was was helping reframe why I was why I was experiencing loss because I I was really struggling with this piece of why am I feeling so rough about this whole situation because it wasn’t my physical experience.

26:18.47
katrinamcollier
Oh did you feel like did you feel like you didn’t deserve to feel that I’ve just got that in a wave. Oh.

26:21.70
Mark Gilroy
Start? Yeah, absolutely yeah, it was I Yeah why why? why? Why should I be feeling this what? what right have I got to feel this Why is it so profound. Why is it such a deep loss and and they help me reframe that as well. It’s not a loss of.

26:31.46
katrinamcollier
Oh.

26:40.74
Mark Gilroy
Of per se of it’s not a literal loss in the way that you think it is but actually it’s a loss of you know the future self. Um and the hope and the imagined future and all things we’ve just been talking about it was it was that process of talking it through that really helped.

26:48.90
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

27:00.18
Mark Gilroy
Crystallize why and then help me process that in ah in um, in a way that was.

27:10.59
katrinamcollier
So healthy, healthy.

27:12.36
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, really really helpful. Another thing that really ah, really kind of stayed with me from that process was a question and this is and this is the kind of question where I think this person wasn’t doing proper counsels thing with me but they they were actually ah it. It’s a question I’ve I’ve ended up using you my coaching. All the time like I loved it. It was such a beautiful question and I and it conveys so much and it was about the anger. It was host foot processing the anger and the question they asked me was ah Mark.

27:31.00
katrinamcollier
A.

27:47.49
Mark Gilroy
What are you making this mean it took me up. It took me. It took me it kind of took me off off guard a little bit. What are you making this mean and the thing about it is that they weren’t It wasn’t a kind of victim blaming thing of saying yeah you’re making this mean something that it isn’t.

27:49.42
katrinamcollier
What are you making this mean booth.

28:02.63
katrinamcollier
That’s that’s a really tough question. Yeah oh I Hope note nobody’s allowed to ever use that towards me that’s tough. Oh my god.

28:05.44
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, is isn’t it. So it’s a really kind of chunky question.

28:18.18
Mark Gilroy
Ah, yeah, um.

28:19.17
katrinamcollier
Wow, That’s amazing, but you obviously were able to to think it through and.

28:25.88
Mark Gilroy
Um, and well okay I’ll.

28:29.00
Mark Gilroy
Ah, well I can give you an example of how how it made me make sense of so my anger so um, at 1 point at 1 point. Um, so this is actually beyond that the miscarriage actually my partner had had become pregnant and ah we were a.

28:34.31
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

28:44.37
katrinamcollier
Um.

28:48.70
Mark Gilroy
We were an event and and somebody of a certain age I wasn’t around when this happened I was told about it afterwards somebody of a certain age made a comment along the lines of oh are you going to keep this one then.

29:04.84
katrinamcollier
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah, filters paper filters. Holy shit.

29:04.89
Mark Gilroy
As in meaning the meaning the meaning the pregnancy and it was it was I mean obviously she she was devastated and for absolutely yeah, just completely like a filter and. When I heard about it I was absolutely fury like you know I was so furious and in a way I’m glad I wasn’t there because I I probably would have done something i’t regretted. But yeah, probably I I mean there there would have been some severe consequences for saying something like that something so hurtful.

29:29.50
katrinamcollier
Punch them. Oh no, that was me I’d done that wow.

29:37.55
Mark Gilroy
And so actually processing that in a counseling setting that was a question that came up again. What are you making this mean and of course I made it mean what what I heard which which was something incredibly hurtful, distasteful um and just.

29:57.20
Mark Gilroy
Ugly Um I’ve taken all kinds of meaning from it that it was was personally directed at me and us as a unit whereas actually knowing that person who said it actually what they what? they’d what they’d probably meant.

30:00.68
katrinamcollier
Um.

30:06.53
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

30:15.86
Mark Gilroy
And couldn’t convey in words was completely different that it it was concern and it was acknowledgement of the loss. Ah and ah and actually being able to just reframe it and go Okay, there are there are there are.

30:28.30
katrinamcollier
There are 3000 other ways they could have said that though. Ah.

30:35.00
katrinamcollier
I mean I think this is this is why I’m calling it the damage of words So this is beyond because it’s beyond those kind of words isn’t it but the book because it is the words that they said that you can remember them verbatim I’m sure your wife can because though.

30:35.62
Mark Gilroy
Um, but it it is. It is a nice thing. Um.

30:40.19
Mark Gilroy
Um, yeah.

30:51.40
Mark Gilroy
O.

30:53.33
katrinamcollier
By choosing to say those words I mean she possibly didn’t think it through but therefore worse for it’s like Barbs isn’t it. They get it. They get stuck in you. Wow.

31:01.31
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, is yeah, that’s ah, that’s a really good analogy is like barbs they they do get stuck in you and and it’s yeah um, ah, but it is something where where you can I think that whole question of.

31:11.79
katrinamcollier
But oh ah.

31:17.70
Mark Gilroy
What are you making this mean what am I making this mean is something that you can take and do something with because rather than just letting an experience or an emotion or a set of words wash over you Actually you can take agency and say I’m going to make a choice about.

31:18.99
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

31:29.63
katrinamcollier
So.

31:35.60
Mark Gilroy
What meaning I infer from what this person just said to me and yeah, they it might be a really negative one and they may be genuinely have negative intent but let’s let’s park that for just now what else could they have meant what what extra meaning have I added on top of what they actually said to me. Um.

31:37.13
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:47.10
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

31:53.10
katrinamcollier
And that’s true. It’s that taking a breath isn’t it that taking a breath realizing you’re triggering or like believe me trigger and and just having that awareness of.

31:55.29
Mark Gilroy
And ah and I’ve used that thinking and in all so places.

32:07.38
Mark Gilroy
Um.

32:11.70
katrinamcollier
Like not to react isn’t it and to actually think that through that’s amazing is that the sort of thing you would say to a listener if there were sort of thinking about healing or they’re on the healing journey is to always remember that.

32:13.80
Mark Gilroy
Yeah.

32:24.57
Mark Gilroy
It’s a good. It’s a good kind of personal mantra and ah with the caveat of it’s not victim blaming if you’re a victim of trauma. You’re a victim of trauma and and and that’s that’s valid and your your experiences is valid, whatever that looks like um, simply that.

32:34.40
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

32:38.76
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

32:42.21
Mark Gilroy
A question like that is particularly if if all you do is ask it to yourself rather than ask it to somebody else can help put some emotional distance between whatever you felt versus whatever was done or said.

32:49.40
katrinamcollier
Um.

32:57.49
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah I know what you mean by that I’ve written about I’ve been writing about the gifts so there are gifts from my trauma and it’s like it’s quite hard usually in our darkest moment there is there is a gift there whether we like to.

32:59.81
Mark Gilroy
And and that is usually a healthy thing. Yeah.

33:15.61
katrinamcollier
That or not and it is. It’s tough because it’s like I’m being very clear I’m not blaming you as a victim or as someone who’s been through trauma but it’s like what how how did you gain? How did you grow? How did you? There’s a and it’s It’s exactly what you’re saying. It’s like that fine line with definitely not but I’m giving like it’s a tool to help you. Get through that trauma and that upset and loss and all of those things. Oh My goodness. Oh.

33:40.39
Mark Gilroy
That’s that’s definitely what I’d say somebody else us think something else I think we really stayed to me and it was a friend who shared this with me who who said Grief is a bit like someone coming into your house and throwing like.

33:49.60
katrinamcollier
Ah.

33:56.91
Mark Gilroy
Ah, massive bucket of glitter everywhere I thought Wow that was a bit of a weird metaphor. But let’s go for it. Um, you see it right? It gets everywhere and and you and you might do a bit of it a little work of tidying it all up and sweeping it up and you throw it away. Ah, but then.

34:01.33
katrinamcollier
Oh my God Just it is oh ah getsel. Ah yes, everywhere.

34:12.92
katrinamcollier
Um, and then there’s samo and years later. Um.

34:16.74
Mark Gilroy
And then there’s some more and then you know there might be a day when when the sun shining it just catches it in the light and you go oh god that’s that’s still there and and over time you realize it’s from five years ago six years ago ten years ago Twenty years ago it’s always you’re always going to be finding it so you kind of you kind of learn to just.

34:22.61
katrinamcollier
So that’s from five years ago yeah yeah Yeah

34:36.13
Mark Gilroy
Welcome it into your room or your house. Whatever However, you want to kind of phrase it and not really make friends with it. But it’s there is a there is a sense of allowing it to be there and that being okay.

34:38.57
katrinamcollier
So.

34:54.13
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, ah, that’s a beautiful analogy. Yeah yeah, but it’s almost. It’s almost.

34:56.96
Mark Gilroy
Your house or your room will never be the same again there they will still they willll still be glitter in there. It’ll be part of your house forever and that can be okay.

35:10.56
katrinamcollier
Seeing it like a nice way to remember over time. So benjos is going off in case, anyone can hear him crying and but he’s so fruited. He’s been so good and now just right near the end. That’s the I want to walk like 45 minutes earlier than I should um I feel like that is the perfect place to not.

35:18.42
Mark Gilroy
You. Oh.

35:30.21
katrinamcollier
Anjo what you just said is the perfect place to round this out if people want to speak to you about this or no more I mean I feel like this is a future path for you to do something with maybe write a book Podcast don’t know.

35:31.47
Mark Gilroy
H.

35:44.44
Mark Gilroy
M.

35:46.59
katrinamcollier
Um, but how can they find you other than obviously you’re quite famous on Youtube I’m quite jealous of the fact you’re quite famous on Youtube. Ah.

35:52.49
Mark Gilroy
Yeah, heavy emphasis on the quite. Um, ah so you you if if you just if you meant if you look for my name anywhere on all the socials you’ll you’ll find me in my big round bold the head in most places. Um.

36:00.14
katrinamcollier
Just Google you yeah at that Mark Gilroy

36:07.91
Mark Gilroy
That Mark Gilroy is is is yeah pretty much all of the the suffix you need and and you and you’ll find me somehow that way but genuinely if anyone does ever want to talk about this is this particular experience or anything at all, please drop me line. Always happy to help. Thank you.

36:13.47
katrinamcollier
Yeah, very easy to find ah amazing. Oh thanks Mark oh totally mind blowing. Thank you I really appreciate it.

36:27.77
Mark Gilroy
Thank you.