Ep. 20: You Are In Progress with Patrick Mullarkey

 

Unedited Transcript: Patrick Mullarkey

00:00.41
katrinamcollier
Patrick Malaki welcome to Beyond The Damage of Words podcast and I have to thank you which of course anyone listening is not going to know for washing your hair. Ah.

00:10.40
Patrick Mullarkey
I’m so glad you led with that. Um, and I’m so grateful I mentioned that before we came on the podcast.

00:11.28
katrinamcollier
I Totally had to reach out. It’s looking fabulous.

00:19.76
katrinamcollier
I was thinking all morning I have to mention that I have to mention that yeah but that’s the kind of light heart but lighthearted podcast. It is even though with serious topics speaking of which what led you into healing. We don’t muck about here. We just get on with it. What led you into healing.

00:34.31
Patrick Mullarkey
So what led me to healing I suppose was frustration and annoyance at being limited by my previous circumstances and I suppose accepting some limiting beliefs about myself about my role and.

00:46.84
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

00:54.70
Patrick Mullarkey
In life in general and then um, just so I suppose there’s 2 things. Yay I suppose there’s 2 things. The first was kind of um, a couple of life events like 1 of work specifically where I was like.

00:54.75
katrinamcollier
What made you realize they were limiting though since you do the work and work that outright.

01:07.78
katrinamcollier
And yeah.

01:12.54
Patrick Mullarkey
Affected by just exposure to um, a specific part of like my general trauma from childhood and then prior to that where I’d gone through some counseling previously a couple rounds um to talk about it and it’s interesting. Um.

01:13.98
katrinamcollier
And.

01:23.57
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

01:29.96
Patrick Mullarkey
A great phrase I heard in the context it was in the context of sport kind of psychology and man. It’s like you never arrive, you never arrive the idea being that kind of yourself. You’re a work in progress your team the stuff the expertise you’re trying to build out but what I hadn’t realized I suppose are the first round.

01:31.60
katrinamcollier
From.

01:43.49
katrinamcollier
I.

01:48.95
Patrick Mullarkey
All go around with my kind of counsel then and and the help I got was I was very binary and an imageur was I thinking in this like my late 20 s I remember it as a kind of art dumb of course dumb thin and that was fantastic I got such value from that fixed and then.

01:52.59
katrinamcollier
Button.

02:05.29
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

02:07.70
Patrick Mullarkey
And then it was yeah and then and how how naive how? Um how how full of privilege and entitlement that that view was at the time. Um, but what I realized I I think yeah I think is.

02:12.85
katrinamcollier
Ah.

02:17.18
katrinamcollier
I Think a lot of people have that view though. So it’s not an unusual view. You think oh well I’ve done that I’m fixed now or that maybe that’s a hope.

02:27.67
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah I think there’s I’ve got like ah what you call a preference of bias and assumption on this I think in like especially in western cultures. There’s 2 things at play. There is one is we don’t talk about trauma especially men.

02:34.80
katrinamcollier
And.

02:41.36
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, we’re not encouraged in terms of our archetypes successful archetypes one form another to talk about trauma I think that’s changed it a little bit which is great but also um, people have trouble dealing with anything that’s great. So like I say a binary input output.

02:45.21
katrinamcollier
Um.

02:47.27
katrinamcollier
Yeah, thank god.

02:57.20
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

02:58.92
Patrick Mullarkey
Ah, is easier to process and understand versus say something that’s a bit more fluid. Um, and people get strength from certainty and sometimes you know in terms of our Personas and how we’re feeling about life. That’s not always these were visible and what.

03:03.73
katrinamcollier
And.

03:16.80
Patrick Mullarkey
Happen with like I suppose the life event at work was is like I realized Wow Actually there’s stuff here that I still carry around this baggage that perhaps might be in some form or another always there. What I want to do with this because it’s provided an anchor in the spaces I’m in in a way that.

03:26.34
katrinamcollier
Um, and.

03:35.13
Patrick Mullarkey
I Don’t want it anymore. But I accept it might be. It’s kind of like that checking luggage when you get that cheap flight and you’re like I’ve got to check this in I have to pay for that. But I didn’t even want to bring it. Okay, fine, whatever. But I’m not good dump this stuff at the airport once look at the other side. So um.

03:45.54
katrinamcollier
Um, women.

03:49.10
katrinamcollier
What if it’s because it’s a certainty your use to carrying it. It’s familiar I want to hold on to it because I remember that when I first started the work and it’s like there’s almost this reluctance to let go because oh you’ll have a void. Yeah, you will and it’s wonderful and you fill it out with love and light instead of heavy.

03:53.16
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, yeah.

04:03.90
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yeah.

04:08.34
katrinamcollier
But it’s maybe that’s it Maybe it’s this certainty if I know but I know where I’m at just.

04:12.34
Patrick Mullarkey
And the truth is as well like and we talked a little bit about this in past before we came on um is the stuff that served you to get you to your point in life that to to achieve positive things as well like we’ll talk about being solution orientating how it comes out in our work that.

04:17.29
katrinamcollier
Um.

04:21.67
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

04:27.62
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

04:30.26
Patrick Mullarkey
You Also there’s a moment of truth and terror where you’re like hang about if I deal with some of these things I want to does that mean those strengths those overplay strengths actually end up in the bin as well. Yikes like who am I Then what am I What do I do like.

04:38.13
katrinamcollier
Oh good point.

04:45.41
Patrick Mullarkey
And so you kind of like a fooder looking glass moment. You kind of end up as well. Which which I think again to your point people get conditioned and so they kind of want to veer away from this and stick with the certainty even if it’s perhaps unpleasant in times and not yeah, exactly exactly.

04:48.50
katrinamcollier
A.

04:54.70
katrinamcollier
Yeah, alerting and who had not thought of it that way. That’s really true isn’t it. So if I give that up I might give up that you know the independence and the creativity and the self-reliance. And yeah.

05:06.91
Patrick Mullarkey
Exactly and and then this like when you think back again, you never arrive. It’s like okay, cool just because that was a strength then doesn’t mean it’s gonna leave me but okay like how and where would I want it to show up if I had to be more deliberate about it if I was worried it would get lost in.

05:16.44
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

05:22.95
Patrick Mullarkey
Transition of of the work and the healing I’m doing or whatever that is so all this from showering and washing my hair today. Let’s give it up if you’re listening I tell you what your privilege.

05:24.75
katrinamcollier
Um, oh that’s amazing. So that was kept.

05:38.10
katrinamcollier
Ah I give my best thoughts in the shower honestly. But just I get out now. There’s all these voice notes. So hey I Really appreciate. You is it the um order on the hedge or something.

05:41.63
Patrick Mullarkey
Apparently it’s to do century century deprivation. It’s It’s part of that I saw an interview with yeah I saw an interview Farrall Williams where he talked about it and he said part of like his musicality and whatever but he said he read up on it. He was like.

05:53.78
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

05:59.17
Patrick Mullarkey
Why does it always come next I’ve got no distractions a sense of deprivation and it’s kind of like yeah yeah.

06:04.10
katrinamcollier
Ah, interesting I remember actually Perry Tims got me onto the old aquanotees much as I’ve never gone that path but I have a lot of voice notes even recorded in the shower. Thank goodness the phones of waterproof these days. Um, waste much information. Um.

06:18.45
katrinamcollier
So you talked about you so you did the counseling and you at the nonbinary. What did you do after that where did you ah not non biary. You’re being very binary in your twenty s what what took quite the opposite. What changed what? what went what happened next.

06:24.72
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, yeah.

06:31.16
Patrick Mullarkey
So suppose what changed? Yeah I suppose the first thing was like around that point in time of your life and actually look you. You’re a you’re in progress, whatever happens and and and in a um.

06:42.78
katrinamcollier
Yeah I love that? yeah.

06:48.32
Patrick Mullarkey
You’re you’re developing in terms of as a person the characteristics so you don’t have to be led by your past but just be conscious of it is to being important and secondly was them trying to articulate a little bit and and I was trying to think about ways about okay but cringe as I do this This is the wrong context to use this for stay with for.

06:52.34
katrinamcollier
I.

07:07.21
Patrick Mullarkey
Narrating your work people talk about it in the people industry and I think I believe it is a thing I think it’s really important and very helpful being of service to communities I was trying to think well how and where does that could that show up for for what I’ve experienced so there rates so talking out loud about.

07:07.34
katrinamcollier
Yeah, you know.

07:17.43
katrinamcollier
So you’re saying narrating your work. What does that mean then for those that aren’t in the people industry. Okay.

07:24.43
Patrick Mullarkey
Okay, this is the stuff I’m working on working through here are my assumptions or solutions I’m going to test all them from or I or I know in the past of works and kind of articululate and sharing it so you see it. Um, you know a lot on Instagram and things thing when people talk about ah this is what i’m.

07:34.84
katrinamcollier
Oh vulnerable.

07:40.96
Patrick Mullarkey
Now some of it one. The spectrum is very false throughout the insta life of like kind of yep got up at 5 am smashed through smoothly and did x y you like do one but then you see other people who been been. Yeah I was asleep love hitting snooze. Um, but then you see it I’ve a spectrum people like.

07:44.33
katrinamcollier
Um.

07:52.83
katrinamcollier
Yeah, I’m so happy for you I’m going to get up at half six ah

08:00.82
Patrick Mullarkey
This is a complex problem or issue I face. Do you have suggestions here’s my plan of attack anyway and and kind of narrating the experience of it and being vulnerable and doing it. Yeah, it’s like I think John stops yeah app.

08:02.10
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah. Oh That’s amazing I Love that. But it’s vulnerable as well isn’t it because anyone who’s got the what’s the not the fear of being found out the impostor syndrome. They’d be like oh if I say to petrick I’m doing this and he laughs at me because I’m doing something wrong. Yeah, oh.

08:15.94
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yes, yeah.

08:24.33
katrinamcollier
Interest and.

08:24.38
Patrick Mullarkey
But it’s staggering how it acts as a lightning rod when you start doing it of people actually are drawn to it to actually either offer their view and help or actually it resonates they might be working for as well. So like borrowing that um I thought I tried to do. Kind of like some speaking and talking around it publicly and at events and staff of organizations and then I did a course with an organization called de Coa which is the national association for children of Alcoholics. Um.

08:46.94
katrinamcollier
And.

08:52.43
Patrick Mullarkey
Ah, strongly suggest if anyone’s been affected by our alcoholsism one form or another in their childhood I’d check out this organization. Um, just one the work they’re doing is fabulous is fantastic and much needed to um, they’ve often been put the fringes of um, sort of I suppose social and political life in the Uk it’s they’ve struggled as an organization to.

08:58.65
katrinamcollier
And I’ll add a link.

09:07.96
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

09:12.11
Patrick Mullarkey
To get um, backing and visibility at times for various reasons just that it’s mad. Yeah, and it’s interesting them quick. 10

09:14.52
katrinamcollier
And and yet there are so many children of alcoholics that say well actually the the last guest and my ex-husband and like I just I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head.

09:29.86
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, and it’s mad to say I think this is a good kind of illustration of the challenge around it is um I’ll get the names the dates wrong someone I won’t even bother to try. But um, there was a point in time when they were doing some.

09:31.94
katrinamcollier
Wow.

09:43.50
Patrick Mullarkey
Government committee meeting where they’re trying to present. Okay, like this is kind of what we do and then where we’re going on this this is going back decades and there was debate. It’s on the record is like the notion of oh how or why would you support an organization like this because it will generate shame in alcoholics which might then escalate the problem and it’s like.

09:47.70
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, um.

10:02.57
Patrick Mullarkey
Wait hang on. No no, one’s looking to shame anyone but also we do need to have an adult conversation and kind of bring this and yeah and then so but that kind of illustrates the challenge around the topic area and and what I did was um if if anyone’s interest as well. You can check out their website for this. They do like training for um, for speakers if you’re.

10:05.23
katrinamcollier
Wow.

10:10.78
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

10:19.77
katrinamcollier
That’s amazing.

10:22.53
Patrick Mullarkey
Interested to like volunteer and go into organizations or bodies or schools. Whatever is and they’ll like okay cool they’ll do it was during covid we did it so it was like a bunch of Zoom calls like but I think it it works. That’s like a day and a half two days worth training workshopping.

10:23.12
katrinamcollier
And.

10:33.49
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

10:38.46
Patrick Mullarkey
And they give you like an overview of like the circumstances the psychology of it and what I got aside from you know, feeling more content to talk about. It was also wait I recognize some of the cues and clues of my own um bringing and as well.

10:41.54
katrinamcollier
And.

10:54.21
Patrick Mullarkey
Myself as a persona like how and where certain behaviors have shown up and not just like parked like in the context of like stuff run by lifestyle and alcohol. But even like general everyday behaviors about how I operate how I work how I deal with stress how I deal with confrontation and so on um and so like I suppose.

10:54.47
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

11:06.14
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

11:12.41
Patrick Mullarkey
But trying to narrate the work. The story a bit more around my own experience. What I actually found I was staggered I found out a hell of a lot more about myself and and kind of how I got to where I was today.

11:21.83
katrinamcollier
Yeah, because um, it’s It’s all learned. Behavior isn’t it. You learned coping mechanisms to survive your childhood and then you took them off into adulthood I mean that was the thing I found when I was like started writing.

11:30.94
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, yeah, and I always do this just.

11:38.80
katrinamcollier
Damage your words which has been I mean you when you talk about what were I wrote your words dad. Actually you are in progress. All of that that you know as I’ve written it out I’ve healed so much more stuff but just the the way I would repeat everything back. You know everything I heard that was traumatizing I’d just repeat back and repeat back and it’s the same and then I would act out the behaviors that I learnt to cope to use.

11:47.35
Patrick Mullarkey
Mm.

11:51.84
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, and and like again is like if you’ve if you’ve been a scenario situation where I learned behavior your expectations. But for yourself become ingrained but also your solutions in your approach.

11:57.62
katrinamcollier
I yeah.

12:09.53
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

12:11.39
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, which can be good but also be hugely hugely limiting? Um, so yeah, that was I suppose. Um yeah I know just it was it was it was.

12:14.10
katrinamcollier
Yeah, and just.

12:21.30
katrinamcollier
And it was probably ah, quite unexpected as well because it sounds like where you went on the course really just to learn how to speak about it and then suddenly you’re going Wow and you learned a lot about yourself and you probably healed a lot of stuff as well. Just by recognize. Yeah.

12:31.51
Patrick Mullarkey
It was interesting. Yeah, and it was interesting because like you know in my background I run like events and workshops and for learning leadership but like when you flip it and have to go back back to school in but commers. Um.

12:38.28
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

12:45.10
Patrick Mullarkey
It kind of is it’s amazing doing that and then there’s such a reflective space as well. Um, as all conscious so especially like you know I’m based out of the Uk um irish citizen irish heritage like culturally this stuff is so present in terms of like our everyday lives. But.

12:59.35
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

13:04.68
Patrick Mullarkey
Again to your point earlier don’t really have dialogue or or talk around it despite the facts is you the straight there of like your recent guests and so on this prevalent and perhaps in a way. Perhaps we don’t want to talk about.

13:07.59
katrinamcollier
9 Yeah I mean it’s It’s just it’s rife and it’s it’s funny because we were talking about where I live weren’t we and I described it um not very flatteringly and there is so much Alcoholism and ah in drug taking I Just like literally outside the front door I couldn’t.

13:29.51
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

13:30.40
katrinamcollier
Just walk around the area and it’s just people are suffering and then they numb because they don’t They’re not brave Well that sounds awful or they’re too scared to speak up and go and get some help or you know, even just to start with the counseling. Whatever the nhs offers and just start there and it’s it’s it’s.

13:34.38
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

13:47.92
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

13:49.56
katrinamcollier
Gary to do that. It’s easier to grab a bottle and number and not feel it and unfortunately then that ruins everyone around them. But it’s far too accessible. Um.

13:51.41
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, and it’s um, it’s accessible. It’s cheaper and it’s simpler. Yeah, so um and also like kind of disclaimer like I had ah ah, an upbringing of relative privilege.

14:06.97
katrinamcollier
And and.

14:08.48
Patrick Mullarkey
My parents like are brilliant people but to your point. Perhaps they didn’t have the resources or systems to support themselves at various junctures in their life. Um I’ve got a brother um and like we’re super close and we’re both like in the world of work and kind of he’s doing his thing I’m doing mine like.

14:20.16
katrinamcollier
And.

14:27.66
Patrick Mullarkey
Relative to some people’s experience. That’s a success story. So kind of to acknowledge that as well. But um, like you say like it’s.

14:28.50
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, but also I found that it was funny again I mean you know setting out my story in the in the first chapter and.

14:41.72
Patrick Mullarkey
M.

14:44.70
katrinamcollier
I grew up in what would be middle class Sydney you know the upper norths shore of Sydney. It’s very wealthy area. Big house had a bed or had food I had all of that stuff and I was emotionally and physically abused and it’s like but I I went to private school I mean I look and and look what I’ve done for myself. You know it’s it’s and that’s funny because you.

14:54.49
Patrick Mullarkey
Are.

15:03.89
katrinamcollier
Do think a lot of people end up in a luck almost a trauma competition. They’re like well I’m doing Okay I’m doing well so I won’t deal with the stuff that would make me feel happier and healthier and whole and you know live longer and not pass on the trauma and unfortunately there’s just that a lot of that generational trauma but it’s it’s there in all the classes and all systems and all whether privileged or not privileged.

15:06.98
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

15:10.32
Patrick Mullarkey
M.

15:19.70
Patrick Mullarkey
O o.

15:23.85
katrinamcollier
Um, and I think whoever it just doesn’t feel happy or doesn’t feel as happy as they could be. You know can do something about and deserves to do something about it I think that’s the other that but I know what you mean because it was when I was writing it I wanted to go.

15:30.59
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yeah.

15:38.90
katrinamcollier
I was actually going to put a picture in and then decided not to but was like you can see here what the problem is you know here’s me looking very clothed and pretty going off on my first day of kindergarten in front of a huge house bar blah blah but it’s like didn’t mean it didn’t happen. So yeah.

15:51.29
Patrick Mullarkey
No no.

15:55.67
katrinamcollier
And again and then that that those children are then having children and can be passing it on so that’s a lot of it. So what did you do after have you had other stuff that you’ve done. Um I know you’ve just been through a fabulously long sarcasttic sarcastic job search which would really impacted.

15:58.69
Patrick Mullarkey
Yes.

16:15.80
katrinamcollier
You know how you feel about yourself and stuff like that. So do you have a toolkit or have you done more work. What have you been up to basic I’m always fascinated by what keep people keep doing to.

16:19.50
Patrick Mullarkey
What been up to so I suppose Um, yeah, what I So did we say this before we started recording or just after I’m not sure but but we’ll circle back round to it anyway. Ah I want to go there So’ll We’ll go anyway.

16:33.30
katrinamcollier
Um, that doesn’t matter. Ah, yeah.

16:37.30
Patrick Mullarkey
What I’ve sort of context I’ve been on roughly a ten month job search. Um, which is just well for five. It’s fixed now. So like you know, okay god there. Um.

16:40.47
katrinamcollier
Yeah I wish I’d known that earlier I’m so sorry I didn’t know literally stupid Linkedin yeah.

16:54.26
Patrick Mullarkey
And the thing I’ve been doing or realizing is actually community is key um not look I I mean people like your network is your network worth and all that yeah I get it like notionally that I totally makes sense but also it’s your headspace. Um I found just when you’re.

16:54.67
katrinamcollier
Good. Yeah.

17:04.93
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

17:08.99
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

17:13.95
Patrick Mullarkey
When you leave a role or an organization. You’re kind of uprooted a little bit from that community and and if it’s not of your own choosing in terms of timing or otherwise it can feel very abrupt and very rough rough and be like it’s hopeful. Yeah, isolating is the word. Um, and so what I’ve learned and what I found is is is.

17:23.36
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, and isolating and.

17:33.81
Patrick Mullarkey
Just being deliberate about reaching out to people to almost with no intent or output from a conversation and just being willing and hopeful just to kind of can we just shoot the shit for half an hour on a Zoom call like could we just like talk about nothing and some of my most I suppose recharging.

17:39.65
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:51.79
Patrick Mullarkey
Moments for my resilience were like weeks where I was like right I can’t control the market I can’t control the current processes I’m in because you know I’m not gonna hit back this time or date or whatever but I can do is control like how do I feel my day in terms of the people and energy I want to have around me um now.

18:00.58
katrinamcollier
And.

18:06.16
katrinamcollier
Yes, yeah.

18:11.80
Patrick Mullarkey
Disclaimer you do have to kind of accept. You’re the first thing to get dropped if a competing priority comes through the door if you’ve got a ten o’clock coffee break lined up with Jim or Sarah down the road at the last place used to work over wherever it is if their manager puts in a 10 am at 5 minutes notice

18:27.60
katrinamcollier
Ah.

18:29.48
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

18:30.60
Patrick Mullarkey
Then not come into that call that you you might not even find out so you’re like after the event so you got to build up a kind of bit of resiliance to that but don’t I’d say to anyone who’s in that situation keep going and keep reaching out. Um, there is like a approach anxiety I think you develop over time not just in the context of.

18:33.89
katrinamcollier
Yeah, and yeah. And.

18:47.76
Patrick Mullarkey
People, but also um, application of processes and you end up not wanting to be seen at points I’d say However, wherever you can be seen whatever that means to you? Um I knew when them Quickstorys are like um for.

18:51.21
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

18:58.93
katrinamcollier
And.

19:05.35
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, my birthday which is September my wife got us tickets see Jessie yeah yeah, it’s more of but um.

19:11.15
katrinamcollier
Therego Therego he did tell me that now in ah you did run it the funniest thing on the little booking form you you’re the only person that’s ever done that I loved it. Ah.

19:20.95
Patrick Mullarkey
Ah, that’s Virgos for you. Um, she got me tickets to see Jesse Ware at the Alexandra Palace I mean I’ve just discovered Jesse war over the last couple years massive fan I know which generated a lot of anxiety we got towards the day of the gig I think it’s around October and November time I like.

19:29.20
katrinamcollier
And.

19:35.62
katrinamcollier
Interesting.

19:40.53
Patrick Mullarkey
Hangnna say how we gonna get there how we did like like if we drive how much can that cost in petrol when we get there. Can we eat or drink a lot What’s the budget. Ah yeah, but then the next day we got other things on and another yeah and in the end I got to such a point as I actually I can’t go to this I don’t want to be seen. I don’t want and I remember my wife’s what she’s like what is this about was going like I literally like yeah I was like I can’t do this this week I don’t want to be that or wanna be seen and she’s like I’m okay, well one allow me but 2 I’ve got to sell these tickets and no one’s gonna buy.

20:01.33
katrinamcollier
Worth of worth.

20:17.80
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, we had to let the tickets go and I don’t remember the think of the week afterwards and I didn’t go. Yeah, um, there’s a silver night. No no, no.

20:17.55
katrinamcollier
Ah, ah I thought you were going to say and I went anyway and it was amazing because the noise is when you don’t want to go to something and you go interesting. It’s about I’m sensing it was about.

20:29.51
Patrick Mullarkey
Being totally real now I remember I really put my foot down about it I really got in a strap about it.

20:36.88
katrinamcollier
You didn’t feel worthy of having that amazing thing happening while you were in the middle of all of this other rap.

20:40.31
Patrick Mullarkey
Exactly And yeah I couldn’t articulate at the time but she was my wife is great. She’s like look this isn’t yeah if she’s yeah and she’s like look kind of if you really know want go That’s cool but also.

20:48.74
katrinamcollier
Ah, we don’t see our own stuff. That’s why you need a professional.

20:59.15
Patrick Mullarkey
This is for you regardless of other things going on like you earn and deserve this. Um, you know so like but I respect your wishes because I said no go to travel be a nightmare getting there back all ah all the all the practical things that there was a solution for just suddenlyly big. Mountains that we couldn’t conquer I made I mean anyway, um I remember thinking a week after as I hang about what’s this saying or kind of telling me like if that’s a deliberate choice cool but I don’t feel happy with the consequence of like not seeing this artist who I love I’m not a big gigger.

21:17.28
katrinamcollier
London you can have got there. Ah.

21:25.97
katrinamcollier
Then.

21:32.61
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, oh believe me I understand that I saw pink in summer that is the first concert I think I’ve saved it about 15 years I literally don’t but I was like I love her and I’m going for that. But.

21:35.24
Patrick Mullarkey
So this was would have been a big deal for me to go anyway like ah um, but.

21:45.10
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, I quite happily. Ah I will quite happily download the live album of that event and listen to on repeat. There’s like a queens of the stone age at Glastonbury I love watching that video back I would dread being there. Um, but I was then I was like okay, hang on what does this mean whereas.

21:52.62
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, dance other case and um, yeah, yeah, no.

22:03.61
Patrick Mullarkey
Is this of service to me this kind of behavior. Not sure. Um, and then its kind of I did like a reset reboots that was around like um going october into November I like okay, cool kind of got a ditch whatever this approach anxiety around this was representing because it’s not Jesse where is not fret your life.

22:14.40
katrinamcollier
Um.

22:18.52
katrinamcollier
And it’s interesting. You call it approach anxiety So it’s like approaching people which you’ve been doing through your job search and getting knocked back I Assume which is where the self worth. Okay, okay, okay.

22:22.18
Patrick Mullarkey
Going to be indic call to it.

22:32.26
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, and it was sort of and it was be be almost like in my mind just like I can’t do small to I can’t like there might be randomed people you just but like you do a gig you might just start swim me to a stranger and get to note like it’ so I can’t faced in that this this urban weekend like ah.

22:36.73
katrinamcollier
Um.

22:43.98
katrinamcollier
M.

22:49.73
Patrick Mullarkey
I feel I’m having to pour a lot of energy into that in other activities by the way all in good faith on my side hiring managers recruiter aside That’s just how it is sometimes um, go on counterpoint I’m here for it.

22:50.77
katrinamcollier
A.

22:58.89
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah, but no and and you’re talking to the woman who is so angry that recruiters companies hiring managers ghost candidates. So and I’m talking the ghost people who’ve been in the interview process. You know which leaves people down and depressed So actually.

23:19.94
katrinamcollier
Many of them do do a great job and many of them don’t want to have the conversation to they call it displace I call it reject people so but it’s actually really interesting to hear like I love that Ah I shouldn’t love the wording but approach anxiety is really interesting because we all have that where we’re scared to approach somebody.

23:27.47
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

23:38.26
katrinamcollier
And it’s so rare that if you ask somebody for help that they won’t give it then a lot of that can also go back for anyone who’s had emotional neglect or child abuse or anything like that when you’re you know, hyper independent. You know it’s like oh I can’t ask for help like we were talking before we came on.

23:40.23
Patrick Mullarkey
No, exactly. Yeah.

23:53.39
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yeah, yeah.

23:55.50
katrinamcollier
Asking for help for me last year to 51 only ask someone for some help and they said yes like oh yes work in progress. Yeah, yeah, so.

24:04.14
Patrick Mullarkey
Is so funny isn’t it but it’s interesting. See your point like around the the recruits not to dear too much as to recruit and Anger is like because there’s so little you can control you have to I but I had to my brush now was I have to accept certain truths. So um.

24:10.41
katrinamcollier
And.

24:18.50
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

24:21.10
Patrick Mullarkey
It was like a journalur of like theset not rules but observations I came up with that. It’s gonna format is Linkedin post in the next month it’ like around things I have to accept even though they make me unhappy. So for example, you say that ghost thing. Um I’ve been ghosted ah I accepted on my.

24:28.49
katrinamcollier
Mm.

24:32.97
katrinamcollier
The.

24:40.23
Patrick Mullarkey
My my rule or belief was if you get past first or second stage. Ah you could be annoyed to be ghosted after that but you can’t I can’t waste energy being ghosted on first or second stage roles because it’s too prevalent.

24:46.30
katrinamcollier
Ah.

24:55.33
katrinamcollier
Wow, That’s no no way God and I.

24:56.20
Patrick Mullarkey
so so yeah it’s a hang up like not to. It’s not a defense of it in any way shape or form. But I’m like okay how much head space am I gonna allow for a call with an agency or recruiter that so that’s stage one for arguments sake stage 2 might be meeting the hiring manager and then but.

25:07.81
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

25:13.98
Patrick Mullarkey
If I don’t hear back after that first stage now in venness like very rare the second stage happens where you don’t hear something back one way or the other over a period of time but I was like I’m um just I was like that first stage especially like I just gave up chasing certain people like I kind of Lo Reitman

25:14.20
katrinamcollier
And.

25:19.67
katrinamcollier
But it does yeah.

25:27.72
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah I mean I guess what I yeah.

25:33.86
Patrick Mullarkey
I was gonna say she’s got a great approach for this way. She’s like you can follow up 3 times 6 6 working days at a time then after that just let it go and that kind of worked for me I was like okay if I’m not getting a response that’s cool, just park it in terms of the outcomes fine.

25:40.77
katrinamcollier
Button.

25:46.23
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah I mean I get if you’re dealing with an agency I mentioned that full lem because one day you’re a a client but I’m more thinking if you’ve spoken to in In-house Recruiter Talent acquisition and then a high manager I mean to me if you’ve had ah ah a screening call with an in-house recruiter at a company you should be getting feedback. Even if it’s just a email saying I’m really sorry we’re not proceeding just so you have closure because we all want closure. You know it’s just certainty goes back to the beginning when you were talking about certainty. Yeah, if it what on you.

26:08.56
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, yeah, and my other thing is well was like yeah yeah and I like yeah I don’t mind a lack of feedback just give me the outcome like I can I can I can just ah yeah, exactly.

26:19.19
katrinamcollier
Yeah, just like you know to move on because you still got that little glimmer of hope going on I mean it’s great that you were able to find a way to deal with that. But you shouldn’t have to deal with that again hence second business book is coming for.

26:24.81
Patrick Mullarkey
But like um.

26:31.00
Patrick Mullarkey
I Totally agree. It’s totally concur. It doesn’t feel fair. But.

26:38.74
katrinamcollier
The managers to make them understand more about yeah ah as you the other thing I want to do is speak at the? um well I’ve been invited to speak at a Hr tech event and and really talk to these tech providers as well to make sure that they’re providing technology that’s fit for purpose as well because not all applicant tracking systems allow.

26:55.53
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

26:58.28
katrinamcollier
Someone to get knocked back really easily either. It’s all mad Anyway I’ve gone off topic onto my other stuff that I don’t want to talk about I won’t talk about you because you’re fabulous. Um.

27:01.48
Patrick Mullarkey
Oh good.

27:07.74
katrinamcollier
Ah, so have you ever gone back and sought like other professional help or done any have you had any interesting experiences. We were like oh God that was amazing. Um, or is it just really just being very conscious of your thoughts. Yeah.

27:19.42
Patrick Mullarkey
It’s yeah so I’ve done like cbt therapy of Cognitive Behavior Therapy um via counselors I Think that’s been a form of like twice. It was declared as part of the format. The star is like kind of the council would say like oh I’m taking this approach to my.

27:35.51
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

27:37.16
Patrick Mullarkey
Counseling or like I fit this would be appropriate so but free times like I’ve had a formal counseling. It’s interesting as well. Like um, this might be more of a north american thing. It seems to be like a a fred or pattern that people talk mindfully about having a therapist even in like just as part of almost their like everyday life. Even.

27:47.85
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah.

27:56.25
Patrick Mullarkey
Rather than waiting for after the event of a form of tragedy trauma otherwise or challenge. It’s almost as part of their their routine. But um, what I found I suppose ah the the weight it lifted especially that first.

28:02.61
katrinamcollier
Um.

28:13.73
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

28:14.23
Patrick Mullarkey
Set of counseling. Um I had ah around 2008 or so um and shit she was fantastic. Fabulous um, just in terms of having a sense of the person in front of them how to be of service and I’d say so anyone who’s um, considering or pondered it.

28:18.72
katrinamcollier
And.

28:28.28
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

28:34.14
Patrick Mullarkey
Like getting some counseling resource or help like absolutely do it. You have no idea where it might take you and it might challenge your assumptions about yourself. That’s that’s a good thing. That’s a great thing in terms of just to to understand yourself better and it will ask a lot of you. Yeah.

28:37.53
katrinamcollier
Um, and exactly I have a mirror held up isn’t it to.

28:52.73
Patrick Mullarkey
And it’s some.

28:53.33
katrinamcollier
You know you’re doing this pattern of behavior and you know this might be the reason and yes, it’s quite interesting to understand that.

28:56.48
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, and who it and it’s and why I’d say to be resolve are what you intend to turn up and talk about if you are gonna go there. You might also have to accept is not the thing you end up speaking about? no not so no. So.

29:09.50
katrinamcollier
It’s it’s never what you talk about I I used to find it interesting I’d get sick before a session as well when it was going to be so I did a lot of inner child work at so Michelle Zoli I mean she calls herself ah a courage but she’s got a massive tool kit.

29:14.52
Patrick Mullarkey
And um.

29:21.40
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

29:26.71
katrinamcollier
So it was always going forward but we did have to heal the past. But yeah, the inner child work. So if there was going to be a session that was going to actually be particularly healing. It was amazing Health and I’d get sick. It was like my subconscious new. Oh you can’t go because this is going to change your life for the better. You can’t go because it’s a bit scary so that sort of stuff as well.

29:39.33
Patrick Mullarkey
O o.

29:45.60
katrinamcollier
So wrote about that in the memoir because I feel that people need to be aware that just it’s almost like you know so just and it was such. Yeah yeah, back on.

29:49.17
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, and again, it’s all cute queues and Clues like is this of service and helps you cool crack on keep going with if being Ill it exactly exactly? um.

30:00.33
katrinamcollier
Get past the little inner voice that’s trying to hold you back and keep you small and safe.

30:06.87
Patrick Mullarkey
And like um as I Just think it backs those sessions as well. I remember there’s quite. There was one one in particular where came in circle down skyroer Hot basically hot and angry right from the start session and I remember it was the it. The only one at that point in time where um.

30:14.29
katrinamcollier
Um.

30:16.59
katrinamcollier
Yeah, yeah.

30:27.70
Patrick Mullarkey
She’s a can’t ba word or said she was like how are you getting home off this tonight who is aware or understands that you’re going home and when you’re gonna arrive there and like look because there was a level of kind of light understanding. There was something big I was going for that point in time. But also I looking back and I realize.

30:28.70
katrinamcollier
And.

30:35.37
katrinamcollier
So um, yeah.

30:39.97
katrinamcollier
Yeah.

30:45.48
Patrick Mullarkey
Part of what drove that was and this goes back to your point earlier is like the realization actually you know circumstance or 1 thing but I feel like I deserve better than than this this pack of cards I’ve been doubtt and actually I I definitely was let down invertly by certain circumstances.

30:56.65
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

31:03.47
katrinamcollier
Um.

31:04.19
Patrick Mullarkey
But now I can do something about it or at least try and move towards something better for from that and again like this is a bit of a mono.

31:06.99
katrinamcollier
Yeah I mean there is no parenting manual. They don’t intend to par this stuff on or screw their children up that isn’t the intent not at all so you know that should almost be a caveat for all these conversations. But if you don’t feel great. You can do something about it.

31:16.41
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, not it’s up and and the fingers as well like.

31:24.92
Patrick Mullarkey
Exactly exactly and I said it as a parent now is like I’m conscious like there’s stuff I’m doing or points of reference. My son is taking from my behavior is like is perhaps not my best self showing up or not the stuff I’d wanted to repeat but he he might end up doing um.

31:25.10
katrinamcollier
Buts.

31:29.96
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah.

31:34.79
katrinamcollier
And yeah, do you think that will encourage you to keep like working through some of that stuff that you’d like to heal from your childhood. Just.

31:40.94
Patrick Mullarkey
That’s live.

31:47.19
Patrick Mullarkey
Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s like um I did just like a example is and like for example, journaling is like a thing is very helpful to me just first thing in the morning get out. Whatever’s on my mind a few sentences.

31:57.79
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, our case. Yeah, how old is he.

32:01.91
Patrick Mullarkey
Stuff like he’s started doing that himself in terms of start reflecting on it. Yeah on his own confidence and stuff like that. What does it mean and um, he is 9 He’s just turned 9 in November um, and soon you can see certain wheels are turning around identity self-percep and self-worth in the school playground and elsewhere.

32:12.20
katrinamcollier
Lovely Eight and.

32:21.45
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, and I think how it’s like kind of shown up in terms of like how I want to operate as parent and partner to my wife as well as just being conscious and open about actually again work in progress. So just be conscious around. Are you happy of the direction of travel. You’re going in.

32:26.97
katrinamcollier
I.

32:35.18
katrinamcollier
Yeah, um days. Yeah yeah.

32:39.21
Patrick Mullarkey
And if not do something about it terms your own behavior or speaking to others. Um, again, it’s all kind of like interweaves a bit of the what rather job stuff and other stuff earlier as well as like your world starts to get stressful when it feels small therefore.

32:54.31
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:55.10
Patrick Mullarkey
To expand it out. You need to talk to other people whether that’s in terms of just shooting the shit like I said earlier or whether it’s so more formalized that helps your head space and lift off the weight off your shoulders and again I repeat it for any men specifically other people too of of any description but specifically for men listening to this.

33:09.62
katrinamcollier
On her. Yeah.

33:13.88
Patrick Mullarkey
There’s a hero archetype. We’re kind of encouraged to buy into culturally or otherwise you don’t have to be that hero archetype and actually real courage in her who is Heroic Behavior is about asking for help as well.

33:25.70
katrinamcollier
Is yeah and and it is so damaging to self to hold in the emotions I was interesting again. But yeah, researching for the memoir was yeah my my dad had heart disease and I knew he suppressed his anger and then I saw there’s a direct correlation.

33:29.80
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yeah.

33:38.84
Patrick Mullarkey
Um.

33:41.90
Patrick Mullarkey
He.

33:42.21
katrinamcollier
Suppressing anger leads to heart is it and you start reading up suppressing this leads to this doing this leads it. It’s like our bodies will express it somehow so you know just just deal with it if anybody would like to chat to you further or just reach out Linkedin is that do I say.

33:50.51
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, yeah, yeah.

34:01.48
Patrick Mullarkey
Um, it’s yeah yeah here. Um, that is the spot. That’s like probably the only place. So yeah, if anyone’s interested talk more this It’s probably easiest. Um, yeah.

34:01.89
katrinamcollier
Now they’re back off the naughty step yeah isies just the easiest place if I just put a link to your Linkedin and they can chop you on the line. It’s just amazing. Yeah, but thank you I think that’s really encouraging isn’t it just speak up. You talk to people and also I think when you were talking about the professionals often. The people you talk to will say hey have you thought of talking to someone because they know people everyone knows people so yeah, cool.

34:24.94
Patrick Mullarkey
Yes, yeah, yeah, so take action anyone who’s pondering there or listening to this thinking there to treat it treat it as like an experiment. No there’s there’s no like successor failure. You’re just experimenting to see where this might take you.

34:39.88
katrinamcollier
Um, yeah, yeah, and if you if you’re happy to look after your physical health. Why not your mental health. It’s it’s just no brainer isn’t it. Ah, thank you so much Patrick.

34:43.28
Patrick Mullarkey
Take action and exactly that exactly ah not at all.